Will Dove  00:01 In part 1 of my interview with virologist Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche, he explained how the Covid vaccines interact with the innate and adaptive immune systems and how the suboptimal immune response which results from the vaccines leads to immune refocusing of the virus, which allows it to continually mutate and pass back into the vaccinated population as new variants. But where does that process end?   Will Dove  00:26 Dr. Vanden Bossche has become convinced that eventually, probably quite soon, the virus will stop mutating for transmission and instead mutate to become more virulent. Much more virulent. But only in the vaccinated. He believes that when this happens it will move through the vaccinated population so quickly that our health care systems will collapse, and far worse, that potentially billions could die.   Will Dove  00:52 But there is hope for the vaxxed. With his deep knowledge of vaccines, Dr. Vanden Bossche believes there may be a way for the vaccinated to protect themselves against this doomsday scenario. And the answer lies in another vaccine. Not an mRNA vaccine, but a common vaccine that has been around for years and that anyone can get just by going to their doctor.   Will Dove  01:21 So now we've got a pretty good understanding of innate and adaptive immune systems and of the differences between those who were vaccinated and those who are not and how they're going to respond to an infection.   Will Dove  01:32 And you have explained it well enough for us to understand that this immune refocusing means that the injected are having an immune response. But is, as you say, it's a suboptimal response. It's not necessarily killing the virus. And it is spurring further mutations, further variations of it, that are then going to easily pass to other people who were injected, because as we discussed earlier, in large part, due to the fact that their innate immune systems not being engaged, as it is with those who have natural immunity.   Will Dove  02:06 So if we've got that much, let's draw the conclusion of what happens, because you made references earlier in the interview. But there's a natural conclusion that this process is going to keep happening until it's going to reach an end point. So, what's that end point?   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  02:26 Well, the endpoint is the very same endpoint that ends a natural pandemic. So, this is now the part that is easy to understand and natural pandemic ends, when you have no longer significant transmission of the virus. That is what we call herd immunity. If large parts of the population have developed sterilizing immunity, because they have a strong innate immune system, or they have encountered the virus, their innate immune system was not strong enough, and they also developed antibodies.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  03:17 Well, next time around, that natural immunity, the innate combined with the antibodies will kill the virus right away when they are exposed. So ultimately, large parts of the population will develop sterilizing immunity, so kill the virus in other words upon subsequent exposure, and bring the level of transmission down to a level that even people who are not immunized because they have not yet seen the virus, the likelihood that they're going to expose is almost nil, because the level of transmission is incredibly low. Thanks to the majority of the population...   Will Dove  04:06 If you don't get exposed and get ill, there's no one to pass it to because everybody around them has already got immunity.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  04:13 Yeah, yeah.   Will Dove  04:14 It reaches that point where it stops.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  04:16 Yeah, it stops.   Will Dove  04:17 What we've got is a situation where, okay, let's say we're talking about a highly virulent virus, it has killed those whose immune system simply couldn't adapt well enough. And everybody else now has immunity. So as you know, we've got a herd immunity issue, or maybe there's a few scattered people here who never got infected, but there's no longer enough vectors for them to get infected. And even if you don't, they can't pass it to somebody else, because everybody else around them is immune.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  04:42 Yeah. The virus cannot perpetuate its cycle. We are talking all the time about viruses that cause acute self-limiting viral infections. They need, they desperately need because of their definition, of what they are, they desperately need transmission. They desperately need transmission because you get infected, either your innate immune system protects you. But even if it doesn't protect you, you're going to get ill. But you know, if you're a healthy person, within two weeks, you are going to cure out a disease, but at the same time, you will eliminate that virus.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  05:19 So that means that during this short period of time, the virus must have spread to somebody else, or it will not be able to survive. So, in other words, the magic word is herd immunity, and the magic words, to end a pandemic, whether it is an immune escape, any pandemic or an active self-limiting viral infection, you can only end if you have dramatic diminishment of transmission of the virus, and the dramatic reduction of transmission of the virus.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  05:59 So now to your question, how could this pandemic that has been completely derailed, you heard me talking about the immune refocusing, and what is not occurring during...   Will Dove  06:11 I want to interject one thing before you continue to make sure I'm on track. And I believe it was you who actually originally said this, because of these vaccination programs, we're never going to reach herd immunity, because of the immune refocusing. It can't happen. Now this leads to that, and that's the framework in which I'm asking this question. What happens now within the vaccinated population?   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  06:37 Well, what we still have, of course, we don't have herd immunity. But a herd immunity is only a way, a tool, that the population is using to curtail the transmission of the virus. And we all agree that if you could steal the transmission of the virus, a virus that is acute self-limiting, causes acute cell viral infection, if you can achieve that, then the pandemic or the immune escape pandemic ends.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  07:13 So we don't have herd immunity. So the question is how nevertheless, we can get to that very same endpoint, because if you cannot reduce the transmission, you will not stop this. That's what I was saying, all these immune refocusing leads to all kinds of immune defense mechanism, but at every single time, allows the virus to continue to replicate and transmit. And that is why it can continue this cycle of immune escape. So, if you cannot cut the transmission, you cannot stop it.   Will Dove  07:54 What it means then is we're going to reach a point where that immune response is completely ineffective.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  08:02 In the vaccinated?   Will Dove  08:04 Yes, in the vaccinated. That's what's going to happen. And this is how you're predicting. I'm going to let you fill this in. It's all just much for me. I get it now. I understand.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  08:15 You're giving already indirectly the answer. So, the unvaccinated, of course, it's not a problem, as we were just saying they have trained their innate immune system, to a point where they can now eliminate a virus at an early stage of infection before even the virus produces progeny. That's why I'm saying I would love to see studies now, where unvaccinated people, we are exposed all the time, that show that the unvaccinated are no longer producing infectious virus, right? Though I would love to see those things.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  08:58 So, they have sterilizing immunity. Okay. So, if the vaccinated don't have sterilizing immunity, and nevertheless, you will have to curtail the transmission of the virus. I mean, it's based on science, but the way I'm going to tell it to you is almost like philosophical, this can only happen if the vaccinees disappear. That is why the virus is right now on a track where it is put so much under pressure, that's the way you have to see it. Rather, availed and going into the molecular details. You have to take this helicopter view and that is something I hope that will resonate with you hopefully.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  09:55 So, all these - that's what I'm doing all the time. Of course I'm stood in these particular events, but I'm always asking myself, what is the purpose of nature doing this? So, if you see all these immune refocusing, why all of a sudden, you elicit a new immune response that can to some extent, that gives to some extent the vaccinees a break, right? Because they can, to some extent, recover. Whereas the virus is going to escape anyway. So, what is the purpose of this? Why doesn't it escape right away? That's what I thought would have happened. And therefore, my initial predictions, my timeline was wrong.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  10:40 I learned that nature, gives in fact, the vaccinees a break, but not enough to abrogate the transmission of the virus but it delays the transmission of the virus. By delaying the transmission of the virus, it gives more time to the unvaccinated to train their innate immune system, so that everybody, all the unvaccinated, can train their innate immune system. So, in fact, what is happening with all these immune refocusing is that there is more and more pressure on the virus on all these different things that helps the virus to transmit, right?   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  11:29 Resistance to neutralizing the antibodies, for example, resistance to inhibition of infection, resistance to cytotoxic responses that can abrogate its productive infectiousness. The pressure increases, the immune pressure increases, but every single time that immune refocusing takes place, it comes with an immune response that is not capable of curtailing the replication and transmission of the virus. So that means the virus has every single time, a chance to escape.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  12:12 So, all these immune events that take place, or the only effect is that you're going to delay the transmission of the virus. They're not going to prevent it, but they are going to delay it. Until a point where in fact that the pressure on the virus is so high, that the virus needs now to shift to characteristics that will enable it to no longer have to rely on transmission from one host to the other. But to disseminate and replicate much more abundantly within the host that it has infected.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  13:03 And what is the purpose? What is nature's goal by delaying the transmission? First of all, it is to get the unvaccinated better and better trained and also, if the spread is delayed, the virus has more time to spread, more and more unvaccinated people can get trained. That is one thing. The second thing is also to cause in all the vaccinated people, the highest and the last or the most extreme status of a immune refocusing, right?   Will Dove  13:51 Yes.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  13:53 As I was saying is the immune refocusing is staggered, there are several different types of immune refocusing. It's only when you reach the last step, that it will shift to an immune refocusing that is now going to enable the virus to transmit within the host itself. And in order for the vaccinees, to all reach that last stage of the immune refocusing, you will have to delay the transmission of the virus to give it more time, because it's important that all the vaccinated people achieve this last stage. So that the virus can spread and disseminate within their organs.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  14:45 Because that is the only way that you are going to curtail the transmission in the population together with all the unvaccinated, or equally thanks to the delay of the transmission, had enough time and all of them to train their innate immune system to an extent that they all have sterilizing immunity. I don't know whether you'll get it, but...   Will Dove  15:11 I did.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  15:12 It's pretty sobering.   Will Dove  15:14 It is. Because if you follow that to the natural conclusion, what's going to happen, inevitably is we're going to get a variant that's going to kill an awful lot of vaccinated people.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  15:25 Yep.   Will Dove  15:26 But I want to ask this question, because it occurs to me, and I'm sure you have an answer for it. But my non virologist mind jumped to this conclusion as well. So I'm grasping a straw of hope here with this. As I said, we're looking at these variants and they're getting more transmissible but they're getting weaker. Is it possible that another conclusion could be that we would eventually get to a virus that's spreading throughout the vaccinated population, but the virus is harmless?   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  16:02 No because the virus isn't harmless. That is what people you know, that is the problem with relying on the advice and the opinions of virologists. Now, because people say oh, Coronavirus, or there is a flu, you know, bird flu, etc. That is a virus, so the virologist will know it. Unfortunately, the vast majority are the virologists that are giving their opinion on these pandemics, whether it is avian flu, whether it is Corona, etc., don't understand the immunology. These viruses, every virus, I can tell you, Will, any virus that can destroy cells, and many, many, viruses do this and this what viruses do, they infect cells and they destroy them. Any virus that has the capacity to destroy cells like Coronavirus, like flu virus, are highly virulent in the absence of an immune response.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  17:12 So now, these viruses that are circulating are a highly infectious, the viruses that are circulating, or as infectious as measles, which has the highest score with regard to infectiousness among all viruses, that are still immune responses in place temporarily due to the immune refocusing, that prevents those viruses from causing deaths and severe disease. There is even a large pressure on the transmissibility of the virus. So you could say, well, the virus is even less transmissible. No, because the immune responses are such that they still prevent, in fact, not only severe disease, but even COVID, acute COVID disease in vaccinees, which facilitates the transmission because these people are asymptomatic.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  18:18 The more people you have that are asymptomatic, the more you will have viral transmission, because these people don't realize that they are affected by the virus. So don't be misled, never say that these viruses are milder, that they cause less disease. This is also this kind of thing where people say, oh, you know what, normally a virus spread in the population, and it becomes more infectious, but it is going to become mild. No, what causes the mildness during the natural pandemic of the virus that spreads are the herd immunity that is developing, that is keeping the virus under control.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  18:59 Now you have a virus that is even, you know, the virus that is circulating right now is certainly 10 or 20 times more infectious than Omicron. And Omicron was already 20 or 50 times more infectious than Wuhan. So, if these viruses would not be confronted with immune responses, like those we have been talking about, the cytotoxic cell responses, the infection inhibiting the antibodies, etc., they would kill you on the spot. There is no doubt about it. So, it's all due to the immune response.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  19:39 And the question is, are these immune responses stable? What is the longevity? Can they be sustained? And the answer is no, because we see that the virus is continuously escaping from those responses. And what we are seeing is that the pressure of those responses becomes higher and higher. And now it is, like, at the maximum even on the transmissibility of the virus. The only way the virus can still circumvent is by saying, Okay, if the population makes it for me almost impossible to transmit from one host to another, then what I will do is that I will acquire, or I will incorporate a mutation that allows me to spreads abundantly, massively, within the body itself.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  20:43 So, virologists or anybody that analyzes, that looks at a pandemic, without in depth knowledge of vaccines and immunology is not going to give any useful advice. And it starts with them saying, "Oh, this is normal behavior for a virus because look at previous pandemics, it spreads like hell, but then it becomes very, very mild and it transitions into endemicity." My goodness, this is due only and exclusively to the development of herd immunity in the population. The majority of the population developing sterilizing immunity.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  21:27 The immunity we have right now through all these immune refocusing events is pretty good. It prevents disease, it prevents severe disease, but it does not do that one critical thing, namely, preventing transmission. At this point, it almost does, but then is compensated by the fact that more and more people are asymptomatic. I'm talking about in terms of acute symptoms of COVID. I'm not talking about long COVID. I'm not talking about immunopathology, etc.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  22:02 But even that last resort, asymptomatic transmission, is changing the virus even under high pressure. That is why you see JN.1, KP.2, etc. Like every week, there has been another variant that each time distinguishes itself from the previous one through a higher level of transmissibility, it's exactly the characteristic of the virus that is under immune pressure. So that transmissibility cannot continue like forever.   Will Dove  22:42 So if I understand that, because of the immune refocusing, which is creating the suboptimal immune response. The virus never gets killed the way it does, in herd immunity within a nonvaccinated population. It's just going to keep becoming more and more transmissible until it reaches the point where it is transmissible as it could possibly be. And at that point in time, the mutations only have one other direction to go in. And that's barreled.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  23:20 Yeah. And it will continue. Why am I saying this? Because we see right now that the virus can escape from that pressure of transmissibility, whether that is the reason why if you know, follow the variants, you'll see that the virus is still evolving. And you see that new variants are still competing with the JN.1 which has already a high transmissibility. And guess what? The new guys that are coming into the play, they only distinguish themselves from JN.1 by a higher level of transmissibility.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  24:03 So, they have been selected, because of the immune pressure. And what we see as well, is that the transmission continues. Even public health authorities, they are saying, they are admitting that the virus is still spreading, it's still transmitting, and as long as you have virus that transmits, you have no herd immunity, you can continue the immune escape. And the immune escape will always select variants that can overcome the kind of pressure that you are exerting on that virus. And that immune pressure that you're exerting on that virus is depending on the immune refocusing, and the kind of complex between the virus and the antibodies that that immune refocusing is generating.   Will Dove  24:58 Yes.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  25:00 So it is, yeah.   Will Dove  25:02 That leads to a rather horrible conclusion. Even I knew that when a virus mutates from being an upper respiratory infection to being something that can infect every organ of the body, unless you find some way to stop it, that's lethal. There's no way it can't, it's going to kill the host. And so, the horrible conclusion this leads me to is, if you're right, if we reach this point, where this virus now mutates, highly transmissible, and it mutates to the point where it's going to start affecting the organs of the host - everyone who is injected.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  25:51 No, not everyone. Remember, only people who got fully vaccinated.   Will Dove  26:00 So, they only had one shot.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  26:02 No, that doesn’t count.   Will Dove  26:05 They may be okay?   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  26:06 Yeah, one shot doesn't count. And it also depends on the mRNA vaccines, the non-mRNA vaccines, it is always the same. Two conditions need to be fulfilled, fully vaccinated, and high titers of antibodies. But that is the consequence of being fully vaccinated. So people who are fully vaccinated, those are really, really at very high risk. The only way to stop this is very simple, is to prevent infection, because these people are continuously experiencing vaccine breakthrough infection. Although the symptoms they have are not very clear.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  26:55 Many of these people are asymptomatic in terms of SARS-CoV-2 disease, and you're asymptomatic because of these temporary immune responses that can still so to say, deal with severe consequences, but the purpose of nature is only to delay the transmission, so it's not to save the vaccinees.   Will Dove  27:22 You can't stop the spread.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  27:24 No, of course not.   Will Dove  27:25 It's impossible. Multiple studies have shown it's impossible.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  27:29 I mean, Will, why do you think that early 2021, when I heard that the purpose was to roll out these vaccines in entire populations, that I started to get it many, many others, but you know, I explicitly ask the WHO to organize the debates, because we have been shouting from the top of the roofs, "Don't do this! Don't do this!", because the consequences are going to be dramatic.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  28:05 And all the side effects, and all the secondary effects and what people are talking about, which is all very important, but I tell you, all of this is peanuts, compared to what I'm predicting. And what I am 200% convinced of the only way that you could intervene is either that is not feasible by putting all the vaccinees in a concrete bunker, that's not feasible. What is feasible, but they will not do it either, is to give antiviral to these people, because if they don't get infected, it's like, even if the virus gets transmitted, but the infection cannot be productive.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  28:51 So, you can get infected, the virus can enter into your cells, that same effect as with the NK cells, before it starts to produce new virus, it gets killed. That is what drugs like ivermectin, etc. will do, or you put it in the same status as the unvaccinated because, you know, I mean, that virgin, Madonna's virgin that has been untouched, their innate immune system can still be touched, it's not destroyed. I've never seen it, that the innate immune system of the unvaccinated had been destroyed. No, it has not been destroyed, it has been sidelined. So, you can still touch that virgin.   Will Dove  29:42 For the vaccinated is to strengthen that innate immune system?   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  29:46 Of course, and that is where my recommendation comes from, to vaccinate with the MMR vaccine, of course, people need to be healthy, but there are still sufficient number of vaccinees that at this point in time are healthy, because their innate immune system is intact. Those who say that the vaccines are destroying the adaptive or the innate immune system of the vaccinees are wrong. What it is doing, it is sidelining the innate immune system and it is derailing the adaptive immune system. Derailing means, through the immune refocusing, it puts the adaptive immune system on the wrong track. It's like HIV that is infecting the immune cells, the immune cells are intact, but they are getting the wrong message. And the innate NK cells are not getting any message at all. And they need to get the message, right?   Will Dove  30:50 Right. So, what you're talking about here from your book, these are the pathogen derived self-mimicking peptides. And yet your theory is that these molecular structures are similar enough between measles and mumps, and COVID, that if you inject these people with the MMR vaccine, their innate immune system is going to respond to it and get stronger, and therefore could provide that protection, when inevitably we reached that point where the COVID virus mutation is something that's going to start infecting the organ.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  31:25 That is correct. That is correct. So, the pathogen derived self-mimicking peptides of measles and mumps, I've checked this because this has been the core of my 10-12 years of research that I was conducting before the SARS-CoV-2 crisis started. Those pathogen derived cells mimicking peptides of measles and mumps, maybe also rubella but that didn't check for rubella, has a high level of similarity with the pathogen-derived self-mimicking peptide comprised within spike of Coronavirus.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  32:04 So that NK cells that has been trained on the pathogen-derived self-mimicking peptide of measles and mumps would also be effective in recognizing the pathogen-derived self-mimicking peptide of Coronavirus, which is the peptide we have been talking about that is expressed at an early stage of infection, when cells get infected before they produce progeny. And they are NK cells provided, they recognize it or they are trained, can recognize that peptides and they will kill the cell that presents that peptide at an early stage of infection before viral progeny is produced. And that is how our innate immune system of the unvaccinated is working right now. So, if we can simulate this?   Will Dove  32:59 As you've already explained, the vaccinated are relying entirely upon the adaptive immune system. So if we can bolster the innate immune system, the infection never gets past that. Trough that vulnerable adaptive immune system.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  33:15 Yeah. Well, I mean, theoretically, what I can say, I don't know whether this is going to work. But what I can say is that even though logically speaking, it is completely justifiable. And the immunological rational is certainly correct. But, of course, I was always saying, I will not say that this is my medical advice or medical recommendation, first of all, I'm not a medical doctor. And secondarily, giving these kinds of recommendations simply based on immunological considerations and insights is probably not sufficient. That is why, in my blog, I wrote that is “what I would do if I were vaccinated”. So, it's not like an advice, but if it were me, that's what I would do.   Will Dove  34:13 I understand this is a theory, and one that makes sense. The one question that would occur to me is, let's say we've got somebody who's 35, the triple vaxxed. They've watched this interview, they understand the danger they're in, but they already got the MMR vaccine when they were a kid.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  34:30 Oh yeah, they’ve got the MMR vaccine? Well, Will, that is a good question. I'm sure you have heard about memory of the adaptive immune system. That is what people understand, you got, for example, vaccinated, you built antibodies. Even if you encounter that 20 years later, the antibodies can be rapidly recalled, thanks to the memory cells that have been induced through vaccination or through previous infection. We know much less in terms of durability, when it comes to a kind of memory, it's not the same memory. It's kind of imprinting of innate immune cells.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  35:21 Do they last also for many, many years? People tend to believe including myself, that their memory is short, right? That it is not, like lasting for years and years. Now, our imprinting now is of course optimal. I'm always saying people are the best protected, or the unvaccinated in highly vaccinated countries, because they encounter all the time, these infectious variants, and for sure, your memory holds, at least for a number of months. So, the training - you can always take advantage of your training when you're recovering.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  35:59 So, to say, during this pandemic, a new variant, but let's assume that the pandemic stops in 10 years from now, will this MMRV or MMR vaccine that you got 10 years before, will this innate imprinting, this adaptive memory of the innate immune system, that's also how people call this, will this still be effective? That, we don't know. What I'm saying is that we know that this MMR vaccines, as you know, I'm not an anti-vaxxer. Absolutely not, not at all. So, I would say the MMR vaccines have been administered not for centuries, but for many, many years.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  36:48 And I'm not saying that they cannot elicit adverse events in some cases. But, you know, by in large, they are to be considered safe, certainly in healthy people. So, what would be the problem with a boost of an MMR vaccine? And what I would certainly do then, is to check whether I have developed antibodies, because again, same as with natural infection, if you develop antibodies, there will have been a small breakthrough of your innate immune system, which is the best way to train.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  37:32 If you have not, some people got exposed to SARS-CoV-2, but they have never been ill, unvaccinated people. They're asking me all the time, Geert, is nevertheless my innate immune system trained? And I'm telling them, I don't know for sure. What I know for sure, is that if you've got a disease, you have been in bed for a few days, you didn't feel well, you recovered, etc. There, you have certainly trained your innate immune system, right?   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  38:01 And if you would take antibodies, if you have antibodies, that means the special forces came to help. And that is only happening if the infantry at the border would not manage the enemy. So, measuring antibodies after that vaccination is certainly a good advice to verify whether the infection or for that matter, the vaccination with MMR has led to training of your innate immune system. If you have antibodies, if you have a seroconversion.   Will Dove  38:37 Let's go back to the analogy we're using much earlier, the weightlifting, because I've done a great deal of that in my life. So, I understand exactly how it works. When you train to failure, to the point where you cannot lift that weight one more time, the chemical reactions that happen in the muscle because of that failure, that's what causes you to get stronger to build more muscle. So, what you're talking about now with this, checking for the antibodies, the seroprevalence test, testing the blood to see if the antibody...   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  39:06 Seroconversion.   Will Dove  39:06 Seroconversion, thank you. If you don't find any antibodies, you probably didn't overwhelm the innate system. So, you have no guarantee it got any stronger.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  39:07 Yeah, it might have. No pain, no gain.   Will Dove  39:10 But you don't know for sure. Unless you actually gave it enough of a hit, that it got overloaded, it failed and it had to pass the adaptive system and that's what's going to cause the seroconversion, you're going to find the antibodies now.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  39:31 Yeah, no pain, no gain. Very often people after the vaccination, MMR vaccine, even children have a little bit of fever the next day, or they are less well or they have something they feel not 100%. They feel 90% but not 100%, but a little bit of fever, you know, so yeah, no pain, no gain. On the other hand, and it's also true that if you have reached the certain level of training, thanks to this memory, even if you don't push your training any further, you will certainly conserve that level of training for a prolonged time. But that is where I cannot say exactly whether this is going to be for one year, for three months, for physical exercise. You don't train depending on age. When you get older, you don't do your training, like for three or four months, you start from scratch again, right?   Will Dove  40:32 I'm 60 next year, I'll tell you it's down to more like three or four days. Yeah, that's the only difference when I get to the gym.   Will Dove  40:38 Dr. Vanden Bossche, I have one more question for you. And I appreciate your patience, because we're coming up on three hours now.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  40:47 And I yeah, I'm going to have to leave in a few.   Will Dove  40:52 It's going to be a short question I think, and I have to be honest with you, and with our viewers that I'm not even certain these questions make it into the document, into the interview, because I want to give people hope. I don't want to terrify them. But I also want people to be prepared for the truth. If this happens, when it happens, do you have any predictions for how far in the future this is? This event? And what percentage of the vaccinated are going to die?   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  41:23 So the answer to the second question is, if we would know, Will, if we would know, the percentage of people that have been fully vaccinated, and experience vaccine breakthrough infections, that would be I guess, a reasonable proxy for assessing the toll in terms of human lives that populations could possibly pay, but we don't have that figured. But as I was saying, some people train their innate immune system before they got vaccinated, right? And that is especially the case with younger people, because they got vaccinated later on in the program.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  42:20 The elderly in the nursing homes, elderly homes, etc., all these people got massively vaccinated before they even encountered the virus, so there is nothing to hide here, they are definitely in bad shape. And they also got at least two or three or four or even five vaccinations. Young people, a lot of them, I think, as well to Europe, and in the US, both exposed to the virus before they got vaccinated, that may help. I'm explaining in my book, some nuances, but that may definitely help.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  42:57 People who got one shot, or not, that doesn't prime sufficiently. So don't worry about one shot. But yeah, the fully vaccinated, two injections with mRNA, three injections with a nano mRNA vaccine, and who experienced vaccine breakthrough infection. So basically, the vast majority of them after Omicron came to the scene, this was the vaccine breakthrough infections happened in fully vaccinated people. Those are in my own blog, opinion at serious risk.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  43:39 When is this going to happen? I have made a prediction a long time ago, that was completely wrong in terms of the timeline, because I did not take into account this immune refocusing event, this chain of immune refocusing events that frankly speaking has never ever happened before. We have never done this mass vaccination during a pandemic. So, this is a phenomenal, when it happened, I understood immediately what is going on because immune refocusing is known in vaccinology, in terms of vaccine design, you can design vaccines, in a way that they can hide certain parts, variable parts of the antigen and make more conserved parts accessible to the immune system.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  44:31 But we have never ever seen this during a natural evolution or in a population, not even in populations that got vaccinated. But now that I have fully understood this and that I'm also closely following this. I can tell for sure that we are in the very, very last end of the last straight line here to the finish. And I can even tell people what you will see. What you will see and it's already going on is that you will see fewer and fewer cases of acute COVID, of acute COVID disease. But you will see more and more cases of long COVID.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  45:16 And we have not talked about this but very easily, immune escape, putting the immune system on the wrong track, not only has consequences, of course, in terms of the immune defense towards the virus, which is suboptimal, because of the immune refocusing, but it also leads to immune pathology, putting the immune system on the wrong track leads also to immune pathology. And what we see right now is the infected, the acute phase of the pandemic and frankly speaking, there should only be an acute phase because this is an acute self-limiting viral infection.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  45:58 And therefore, a natural pandemic of an acute self-limiting viral infection should also be self-limiting, like the natural pandemic in 1918, the Spanish flu, after two to three waves, it ended, it was self-limiting. So, we are now seeing a chronic phase. So, this immune escape pandemic has transitioned from an acute phase where it should normally have stopped to a chronic phase. Interestingly enough, the acute phase is infectious, is caused by the infectious SARS-CoV-2 virus. The chronic phase is caused indirectly by the virus, it's caused by the immune pathology that occurs as a consequence of immune refocusing and of course, the immune refocusing is an indirect consequence of the mass vaccination.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  46:52 So, we will see more and more cases of long COVID. We will not see acute hospitalizations or more deaths due to COVID itself till we reach that hyper acute phase of the pandemic where that's what we discuss, namely, that the virus will undergo a structural transition that will enable it to disseminate and spread within the host itself, within the individual itself. But till then we will simply see that the levels in wastewater remain low that any new small variant that joins again will be characterized with a higher level of transmissibility that we will not see an increase in hospitalizations and deaths due to acute COVID disease.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  47:53 But the long COVID will ultimately, you know, we will shift to this hyper acute phase then we'll be infectious again. And I have said, I think one month ago or six weeks ago, that I see this happening with 50% chance I said, 50% before the end of April, 99% before the end of June. And I also repeatedly said that I would not change this timeline anymore. For me, this timeline, I'm not going to change this. Is this 100% certain? I don't know, it has never happened. But I can tell you that we are coming very, very close. And that there is no space left for the virus to incorporate mutations that would still allow it in one way or the other, to ensure its survival, through transmission from one host to the others. That capacity of the virus has now come under tremendous pressure.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  49:14 So, the shift to intra-host transmissibility could - in my humble opinion, literally happen anytime. And I personally, you know, together with family and friends, we have taken our precautions because even for the unvaccinated, I mean, it will cause a major chaos. And it will simply start with the hospitals that will be overwhelmed, the health care system will crash. And if that crashes automatically, it will cause a major chaos in society. So scientifically speaking, Will, I am 200% convinced there is no way this can be ended without cutting the transmission.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  50:07 And highly vaccinated populations cannot do it through their immune system, they cannot. The unvaccinated part can, but the vaccinated they cannot. And you can detoxify and you can do whatever you want, but you cannot debride an immune system that has been primed. You cannot debride, you can detox and you can neutralize and mitigate the effects of spike protein for example, that is detoxify, but you cannot debride. The only thing you can do is to prevent infection from being productive, for example, ivermectin or you can try to stimulate and to strengthen the innate immune response, so that it acquires a kind of strength that is similar to the death of the unvaccinated that used the live virus during the pandemic to do this training of the cell based innate immune system.   Will Dove  51:21 So, if this happens, if this starts in the next couple of months, as you've said, and we don't know what percentage of the vaccinated will die from this?   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  51:31 No.   Will Dove  51:32 But what time period are we looking at, from the time it starts until the last of them dies?   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  51:39 That's a good question. And I've not changed my answer, I've never revised this, I always said, it will go very, very fast. That is why I'm talking about a tsunami; you will look at the horizon and you don't see anything. And then the next time you turn around, I mean, it's all almost like already hitting you. So you also have to imagine, a natural pandemic takes a certain amount of time, maybe six months, maybe eight months in the past 10 months. But in the past, the world was a very big place, people have to travel per ship and etc.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  52:25 Now, the world has become a very small place. But if you have this delay, and you accumulate all this pressure, then ultimately, when you reach that stage, where the virus is ready to do what it must do, to end the pandemic, it will like explode. And therefore, I expect this to start simultaneously or most in all the highly vaccinated countries. So, it will not be like okay guys, this start in the US, we are going to close the borders and no immigration or no transports from the US to our country, no.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  53:11 The virus is present everywhere in all these highly vaccinated countries, it's spreading everywhere, in all countries. So now, if you put a population in the same condition, and also the virus, namely a condition of immune pressure through the mass vaccination, all these highly vaccinated countries are experiencing in fact the same situation. A virus that is covered by a high immune pressure of the population caused by mass vaccination and the resulting vaccine breakthrough infection. If you have the same conditions in different countries, you will get the same outcome.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  53:54 So, in other words, it can start in parallel regardless from this virus doesn't need to go from one country, it can be generated within every single of these highly vaccinated countries, because the conditions are exactly the same and all the immune refocusing events are the same. The only thing that can differ is the vaccine coverage, the speed with which they conducted the mass vaccination campaigns. To some extent the demographics can have a certain delay maybe but as we were saying, because these things will happen very, very rapidly.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  54:39 If we talk about delay, we are not talking about months. We may be talking about one week, two weeks, three weeks maybe, right? So, it's not like I expect one wave in the US, then a wave in Israel, a wave in Great Britain, then a wave in Belgium, then a wave in Germany. I said no, no, it's not like that. And that is why in my opinion, but I'm very confident scientifically what I am saying is that it will just be one big global wave in highly vaccinated countries. You will not see this happening in Africa. It will not happen there.   Will Dove  55:27 Right, because of the low vaccination rate.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  55:29 Of course. Yep.   Will Dove  55:32 Dr. Vanden Bossche, thank you so much for your generous time, you've given me at this point in time, three hours of your time, on a Friday evening where you are. So once again, thank you so much for taking this time to explain all of this for your patients, with assisting me to get to a point where I could understand it, so I can be certain that the viewers understood it. And for at least a ray of hope for those who are double vaccinated or more, but there may be something that they can still do to protect them.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  56:00 Yeah, Will, I'm recommending, so the MMR vaccination is not a medical advice, it's something I'm suggesting based on my insights in immunology, etc. But ivermectin is an antiviral that works. The only thing is that I recommend people to take it prophylactically. You will not be able, you cannot wait till symptoms appear, because it will go very, very fast, you will come too late with any medication. So, antivirus that are safe and effective, ivermectin, for example, but taking prophylactically.   Will Dove  56:43 I should think that nasal sprays such as Colloidal Silver would also be a good idea.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  56:48 Yeah, but the question is, see, that is the problem with a nasal spray, you have to renew those, like, I don't know, twice a day or three times a day?   Will Dove  57:02 Yes, what I'm saying...   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  57:05 You cannot spray your nose like for months and months, right?   Will Dove  57:09 Yes, but what I'm saying is that if you're right, and this falls out the way you're seeing it happening, it's going to be a very short duration. As you're saying it's going to start in all places, pretty much at once. But that doesn't mean that when somebody hears on the news that suddenly it's mutated, and it's killing people due to organ infection, that they're infected yet. That can be the point where, okay, start taking ivermectin, start taking the colloidal silver nasal sprays, and probably, probably isolate, probably try to stay away from people to reduce your chances that you're going to get it.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  57:42 No, Will, the unvaccinated should not stay away from the unvaccinated. It's not a problem and not at all.   Will Dove  57:49 The unvaccinated are going to be fine. We should be clarifying that.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  57:53 Absolutely. We'll talk about this, for the vaccinated, isolate, where are you going to isolate? I mean, are you going to isolate in your family? Everybody's vaccinated. It won't help. It won't help. So isolation will not help it. The only thing that will help, that could really help is to build a strong immune defense in your or a strong defense, I should say, in your body. It could be direct based, because you have a good concentration, effective concentration of an antiviral in your blood, in your body, or you have a good innate immunity.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  58:35 That is not going to be the case with the unvaccinated, can they still do MMR, I mean, again, it's not medical advice or suggestion, but they can make sure that they have sufficiently high titers of ivermectin in their blood, that will definitely help. That is also proven, is safe, and it's proven. And so yeah, for those people, there is almost the only thing we can say. And I find it, of course, this is very, very sobering. I'm devastated.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  59:12 That's also the reason why I don't give many interviews anymore, because if people are just interviewing me for the sensation, Vanden Bossche is saying, you know, many people are going to die, and they are not even interested in what is the reasoning behind this? And you're certainly not interested in understanding a little bit of the complexity and of the balance that evolution has generated over thousands of years between a pathogen and an immune system and how we all of a sudden massively disturbed this.   Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche  59:48 If people have no kind of understanding and are not interested in this. Well, I'm not taking pleasure in sharing messages like, we will have to pay a huge toll and many people could die, etc. This is just enormously frustrating and devastating. It only makes sense when we have the scientific discussion as we had today. And that almost the one who is listening and trying to understand comes himself or herself to that conclusion. That's also what I'm kind of like trying to do with people who have subscribed to my course. I explained the science, waiting almost for them to ask, to question, well, does that mean that this and this is going to happen?   Will Dove  1:00:40 Doctor Vanden Bossche, human beings are most susceptible to fear from things they do not understand. And that's my intent with the interviews that I bring to people. Sometimes you have to talk about horrible things. But if you missed, if you understand it, it’s how it gets so frightening.