(0:00 - 2:44) Jim McMurtry was dismissed from his position as a high school teacher in British Columbia in 2001 for telling his students the truth about the residential mass graves narrative. Jim and I met recently in Kamloops, where we were joined by BC MLA Dallas Brodie who was similarly kicked out of John Rustad's Conservative Party, also for questioning the narrative, and where all three of us were working with Professor Frances Widdowson, who was dismissed from Calgary's Mount Royal University, also for insisting upon truth. Professor Widdowson was in Kamloops, along with her very talented producer Simon Hergott working on their second documentary, exposing the false claims of murdered children at her residential schools. Earlier this year Jim published the excellent book, The Scarlet Lesson, where he details his own case of persecution by a school system that no longer has any interest in teaching truth, and will go to extreme measures to silence any teacher who dares to insist upon facts. What Jim also reveals in his book is that his dismissal over questioning mass graves was not the first instance where he was persecuted by a school system that no longer provides education to our children, but rather indoctrination. In the course of the book, Jim paints a disturbingly clear picture of everything that has gone wrong with our schools. Jim, welcome to the show. It's wonderful to see you again, Will. And we had the pleasure of working with each other for a couple of days recently in Kamloops, where you and I along with Dallas Brodie were involved in Frances Widdowson's latest documentary exposing the hoax of the residential mass graves. And in the course of our discussion we agreed on a number of things about our educational system, how it's falling apart. Now you, of course, have written this excellent book, The Scarlet Lesson, where you detail everything that's happened to you as a result of questioning that mass grave narrative. But you've been an educated educator for decades, Jim. And you've observed our educational system gradually falling apart. And in this book, you've made a number of very perceptive comments. And I think that's really what I'd like to focus on today. Folks, if you want to know the details, if you're not familiar with details of Jim's case, I strongly recommend the book. It doesn't take very long to read, and it's very, very revealing about what's going on in our country. So what I'd like to do, Jim, is, as I said, you've got these very perceptive comments, and there's cases here where I would just like to read, quote, what you've written, and invite your comment on it. (2:45 - 5:40) There's a major one towards the front, but we're going to get back to that one, because it is the most concise summary I have ever read of everything that is wrong with our system. But we'll come to that one later. We're going to save that one. So we want to move on. And these aren't necessarily in any particular order. But I thought this was very revealing. We talked about this, where you had made a joke about UNBC, the University of Northern British Columbia, and calling it the university of no better choice, which of course was just a tongue-in-cheek joke. And I personally, if I'd been your student, I would have thought it was very funny. But a complaint was levelled against you by a parent because her sister was a graduate. I'm not sure where to start with that, Jim. To you and I, we're both about the same age. We went through a school system at the same time. It seems to us unimaginable that any administration would give any credence to that complaint whatsoever. It was a completely innocuous, harmless joke, and they treat it like it's some sort of major offence. What do you think is going on there? That this sort of very minor thing gets blown way to proportion. That joke was the beginning of the end for me. I didn't give a child the right mark. I only gave her a 29 out of 30, and her friend Julie had a mark of 30 out of 30. So the mother came screaming into the school. She was so out of control that the administration asked her to return the next day. And the next day she was highly accused of pointing her finger, and that was one of the things. She didn't like my puns. The students didn't complain about them, but I guess she drilled her daughters to what I said wrong. My book is called The Scarlet Lesson because there was a scarlet letter that an adulterous woman back in times when adultery was greatly punished, she had to wear an A forever. And I'm saying because of one lesson, which we'll get to at one point, or people already know, that I'm wearing this forever. For me, saying a simple pun. My son went to UNBC and had a nice time, but I'm carrying it with me forever because I can't teach again. So thank you so much for talking about something that nobody else has talked to me about, which is this really isn't anything to do with the graves and Kamloops. It really has to do with the fact that teachers can't be outside of a speech code. And it's becoming increasingly narrow. And it was never like that. Absolutely right. It was never like that. That we could have debates. We could challenge teachers. Teachers could challenge students. But that's just so important. They're after humour. They're after any story, any history that is some way going to get kids to think outside. (5:41 - 7:31) The one lens they've been provided. They can only look at history negatively. They can only look at and there's nothing about the fact that I made a joke that might have a connotation that is saying something bad about university or saying something violent or saying something that might have a sexual innuendo in it. It's to think that all that's okay if it's part of the woke programme. You can talk about any avoid being strangled to death. You can talk about the holocaust. You can talk about a police officer shooting Michael Brown, this poor black criminal. You can talk about anything. You can talk about sex if it involves the infidelities of Donald Trump. There's nothing you can't talk about as long as it impugns Western Christian capitalist white European British society. Very well said, Jim. And you were talking about that student and the mother who came in complaining because she got 29 out of 30 and her friend got 30 out of 30. And that's just another, and by the way for the viewers, a lot of viewers know this, you know this, my wife's been a teacher for 30 years so she's been watching all the same stuff that you have. And we reached a point where it was no longer acceptable to fail a student. It doesn't matter if they didn't do anything. You can't give them an F. It's not allowed. And so we've reached this point where marks are completely disconnected from performance. And so I really am curious from your perspective what was going through this mother's head when she came in screaming about a 29 out of 30 as though that were somehow a horrible thing because it clearly had nothing to do with performance. (7:33 - 8:36) Well, excellent question. I think parents realise that they can manipulate the system. I think, you know, someone going to a restaurant and not being happy with the service or not even, maybe perhaps not even liking the waiter waitress and going, I want to speak to the manager. So this is the system now. The parents realise that the only people that principals are accountable to are them. So the principals will often completely abandon students. Abandon unless it's a student who's going to go right to mom or dad. Abandons teachers and caretakers, secretaries, anybody in the system. Complete abandonment. But with parents it's different because unless it's a parent who's isolated. But if it's a parent who has some pull with other parents, then that principal is going to genuflect, is going to be completely at the service of that parent. And it's his or her way of showing that he or she is cleaning house, you know, running the school as it ought to be, serving parents and so forth. (8:37 - 9:03) So what marks were meant to be is to reflect student performance and to communicate to parents. But now marks are something else. Marks are a way of managing to stay in the profession. So many of my colleagues give all their students A's. Many of my colleagues don't give any essays, they don't give any tests. Provincial exams went a long way. (9:04 - 9:12) There's two still there, but they're a joke. I mean anybody, they can do them in grade 10, 11 or 12. There's no challenge to them anymore. (9:13 - 9:47) So it's really right now, what you need to do if you're going to stay in the teaching profession, and particularly if you want to get to higher paying jobs, and that's the game. Or even if it's more simply than that, be department head or have the better classroom or have the better course load or teach an easier subject like P.E. or art as opposed to doing seven science classes or English classes with things to look at all the time. So the sad thing is you need to continually placate students and parents. (9:49 - 13:57) So marks are no longer just associated with job survival. Marks now are something that you can really get in big trouble for. So at my school in Abbotsford, the principal would take teachers aside whose marks were too low, and particularly if marks were being given to minority kids that weren't good enough. And then of course the whole school system in B.C., they started saying we don't want any more indigenous kids doing communications 11 or 12, which was sort of an easier watered down English class because we don't want them not to do as well, so we're going to put them all into English where it was an academic class where there was challenge. And then eventually throw everybody in to get rid of communication altogether and have everybody doing high level English. And of course everybody gets A's, and so there's just no challenge anymore. And now they're moving away from English in class because who needs English when you can offer instead indigenous class courses, where you can talk about how to make a fishhook out of bones. Some things that are really going to be helpful to students into the future. So what to me is a disgusting dereliction of duty, and that you're not doing what you're supposed to do. Education itself is a word that comes from the Greek, and it means to lead out and develop, to prepare people for the future, and they're not doing that right now. The focus is more on, again, two things at play. One, indoctrinating into woke ideology, and the other is get ahead. The school system is about how people at the top can get ever more money and ever more influence. I mean, it's not about kids. It really isn't about kids. You don't ever sit down and go, well, what would be a better way of teaching this or what would be a better way of handling children who are homeless and living on the street or what would do, we have a problem with kids dying from fentanyl. We don't talk about those things in staff meetings. We talk about things like well, how bad were residential schools 100 years ago? Because the more we talk about how bad residential schools are, if we do land acknowledgement several times a day, it's supposed to be once a day, but if there's assembly or there's something else, or a basketball game after school, you can have three land acknowledgements in one day. So we do things that are of no value to any kid or teacher in the school, but you do them because what the principle is showing to the whole world is I'm woke. I believe in this ideology which puts down every single person who looks like you and me including kids and boosts up this one, these small groups of students in the school system, and it's not Punjabi kids or kids from India generally. It's not kids from Korea or Japan or China. It's not the kids that do well. We're just focussing on the kids who work less hard, but we need to have them because we want to prove the thesis that we live in a racist society and the more kids that we can get that say yes, Canada is racist, the more kids we can get who are trans, the more kids that we can get who consider a gay lifestyle, the more kids we can get who think that their whole lives are going to be determined by their skin colour. That's what it's all about. Two things again. I'm going to repeat them if I may. Then I'll shut up for a second. And that is it's about making the school system work for the people who get the most money. Some superintendents make up to half a million a year and they do very little work and we're starting teachers who are 50-60,000 tops and that's hard in this day and age, particularly in cities and housing costs and so forth. And the second thing it's doing is academic time is no longer academic time. Even my three-year-old grandson at daycare is being told about residential schools and worried that his hair is going to be cut off and he's going to be taken away from his family. So what I'm seeing, Jim, from what you're telling me, from my own observations of watching my wife over the years and what's been happening in the educational system here, is we have this cascade of issues. The first being starting, I believe, with the parents. (13:59 - 15:18) I'm going to make my own sort of personal comment on this. I've been kind of looking at scans for years at the parents who give their kids these weird names. I'm not going to list any, but you know what I mean. And I've said to my wife a number of times these parents don't really want a child, they want an accessory. And they must show their accessory off to their friends. And their accessory must be getting straight A's. So anytime their child does not get a straight A, they go to the school and they complain. And as you say, we've got principals in our educational system in Canada who are absolute dictators in their own little fiefdoms, and my wife has certainly experienced that a number of times, who all they care about is will the board, the higher up administration, look at their school and say, oh well their marks are at least average or possibly above average. So they have to answer to those people, and those people in turn have to answer to other people. And all anybody cares about is what is seen on paper. And so what's being done here is instead of demanding more of the children, demanding that they actually work, and to learn something, we just keep lowering the educational standards. Until we reach a point where quite literally, and I don't even mean this as a joke, a monkey could graduate from high school with straight A's. (15:19 - 16:00) Well you're not allowed to fail the monkey, are you? And you're not allowed to criticise the monkey for being non-verbal. But that's true. That's true, because if you look at the IQ of some kids with severe intellectual impairment, and they exist in schools because the whole idea right now is everybody, so we don't appear to be in any way discriminatory, we bring kids with the most severe disabilities into a regular school. And so those kids, I have tremendous sensitivity with kids with disabilities. It was something I did every year, and I won an award in Surrey for doing that before going to Abbotsford. It was a significant commitment of me. (16:00 - 16:43) I always had time for the kids with disabilities, including intellectual disabilities. And I went and spent time with them all the time. And one thing that some of the kids couldn't even say what their name was. There were kids that only knew seven words. So you're not wrong. And what do they do now? Because this is again, it's all about show. It's all about smoking bureaus and pantomime and theatre the absurd. What they do is they give these kids graduation diplomas. And they just change the name of it. But the focus is not in helping the kid. And any of the kids. One thing you're saying is you bring down the challenge. (16:44 - 16:56) And of course you can't do that entirely in school, because there are competitive sports, and there's music class, and only the best get to perform in the band. So there's a natural competition that you can't root out of a school. But if they could root it out. (17:01 - 18:15) They would too. I mean they tried for example in sports in schools. These same people say, oh you can't evaluate art, and you can't evaluate an English essay, and you can't evaluate anything about any kid. They were also trying to get kids playing sports saying we're not going to keep score. And then the kids rebelled. And again, I was in a school district in Abbotsford where their kids in some schools are wearing equity backpacks, which is writings about how terrible white Christian type people are. And so the focus was all about having the right feelings. And now there's another dimension I'd like to say. Again, schools being for the people at the top, which is Harry Orwell in 1984, the people in the party, the big brother. That schools are being about, again, a new religion in town, the woke religion. But schools are also now about feelings. They're just big emotional rubber rooms for kids who are emotionally haemophiliac. They're not, naturally. Kids are not that way. And they go, oh my gosh, Jim, you said a tonne. (18:15 - 19:38) Another one I said, this isn't a pun, but I said the word dear once in class with senior students. Some girl was being a little bit sassy with me and I turned to her and I said, in French, I said something along the line that had to do with ma chere, which means my dear. I said the word dear in class and that became an allegation. So they're playing on this idea that teachers are creeps and what you need to deep down a lot of them, but we don't go after the ones who aren't white males or females. But anyhow, well, but usually maybe somebody had to do something really wrong, but we're after a certain race here in school system. And what they want to do is jump all on you the moment they say that you have offended or emotionally harmed or upset any child. And that's the essence of my case. It began one way, but the school district only removed me when I said something that's historically true. But they said, but that truth, they didn't call it a truth. They said, but what you said, if there had been indigenous kids in the classroom might have emotionally traumatised them. So that's the 215 thing. You know, you can, it's better to tell kids that their ancestors were murdered by teachers in their schools than to tell them, no, they weren't. (19:38 - 19:45) Anyhow, so it's not really about feelings. It's Orwellian again. War is peace. (19:46 - 19:50) Ignorance is truth. It's all upside down. Equity is not equity. (19:50 - 21:10) It's just punishing the successful. Inclusion means you exclude everybody with a different view. And of course, diversity means that you step off that script, off that line. You are like me. Almost five years now, no salary, no chance of getting back in the profession. And man, I was the first teacher in Surrey, Delta, White Rock, when they brought in an award and it lasted for a number of years. I was considered the top community educator of the year. First teacher you could get. I always stayed after school. I always volunteered. I did sports, music, theatre. I did everything. Environmental club. I did everything I possibly could at all times. I drove kids home when it was dark and when it was wet and if they needed it. I was always there. I gave kids money for school, food. I did everything I could, and a lot of teachers do, that I could to help young people. And so what have I been doing for the last five years? Sitting at home because they'd rather have some young teacher who doesn't know the subject and has got little kids at home and doesn't do all those things take my place. I think it's rotten to the core. And as we've been discussing, Jim, as we've lost these educational standards, it's been replaced with virtue signalling. (21:11 - 21:53) Why do you think they've done that? What is it about that whole scenario that appeals to our school administration? We've already kind of discussed why the educational standards have dropped because if they didn't, they'd actually have to hold the kids accountable for doing something and they can't do that because then the parents come down on them and there's not going to be any support for that. But why then replace that with virtue signalling and not just virtue signalling, I'm going to make this statement, racist virtue signalling, because if any white kid in your class ever went to the principal and said, I'm very upset that my grandparents are being accused of racism and mass murder, the child would be dismissed. We don't want to hear from you. (21:56 - 22:16) Yeah, it's not a single class. It's like the Indian caste system. You're the untouchable at the bottom if you've got all these horrible characteristics. White, Christian, and those are the big ones. Male. Don't forget that one. (22:17 - 22:29) Yeah, but they go after females too. But male more so. I think the one they're really after even more than those is the kid who thinks for himself or herself. (22:30 - 23:05) They're after the independent thinker. They're after anyone who's going to question the virtue signalling. So as I said, that's a lovely question, the virtue signalling intruded the same thing. It's all this idea of I'm better than you. That's why I'm being paid half a million dollars a year to do nothing, to never get to know, go to any of the schools. I never saw the superintendent unless you said something that was wrong and then you got in trouble. But the superintendents, they don't go into the schools. They don't go to the games. These are people who just sit there and figure out, what's my next job? Oh my gosh, my superintendent, they got rid of me. (23:05 - 23:25) He went on to a big job in the NDP government here in BC. They just get fatter and fatter in their wealth and power and privileges. Anyhow, it just makes them feel better about themselves because they're putting everybody down and then it makes them feel like they're saviours. (23:25 - 26:56) Oh my gosh, there's something special about me because I'm going on about, oh, we live on stolen land. Well, if you live on stolen land, then get the hell off. Oh no, hold on a second. No, no, no, I'm just saying it. This is not real. Come on, stop that. You're gone. You're gone. You're out of this system. We don't say things. We don't mean any things that we say. We are just here to get more money for ourselves. We don't give a darn about kids because if we cared about kids, we'd tell them, among other things, the truth about our society and our past. We would tell them that if you transition, you're going to end up mutilated and sterilised and you'll never have children and you'll be mocked at and considered a weirdo for the rest of your life. We don't say that to kids. We don't say to them, oh, by the way, Christian teachers didn't actually torture and murder kids. We don't want that because we want to completely dismantle the system. We want everything and then all of a sudden, we will reconstruct it, even use the word deconstruction and then reconstruction, recolonialism, and then we'll recolonialize and we'll make it and I'll be at the top. It's just the most hideous thing. If you cared about what schools are to be, you would say, why don't we just go back 10 years? Because the Knightens probably put up steam about 10 years ago. Before then, they were pretty good places. Yeah, they could have been better if they hadn't been just about the people at the top, but they weren't bad. They were pretty good. I was proud of being a teacher. And then all of a sudden, these woke idiots came into the school system and they decided to say, look, men, like Hitler, Mussolini, any evil person in history, you captivate the kids, the Pied Piper, you just get into the kids' heads and then you can do all sorts of things. They got into the kids and now your family, my family, all sorts of families have issues with polarisation and division. I've got that in a very serious way. Family occasion for me is something I tremble at because half the people hate me and the other half loves me. But my point is, it's not a free society anymore because they're turning our own children against us. Yes. And I think that leads very well to the next quote from your book that I wanted to read because you're talking about deconstruction, reconstruction of the educational system into something that does not, in effect, educate. And you're talking about the British Columbia curriculum states, what and how we teach our students has been redesigned to provide greater flexibility for teachers and then in the same paragraph, you go on to make this very perceptive statement. All I do know is the boundaries of acceptable speech are slowly drawing tighter. They're muzzling you. Teachers can't say anything now that's outside of that woke indoctrination agenda. And if you actually try to teach your children real history, real facts, as you did, then you get persecuted. Yeah. You know, the expression that was used for a long time, 30 years ago, 20 years ago, was teach out of the box. That they recognised there were good intentioned people in the system who said, if you do the same thing as every other teacher in every year of a kid's schooling, then it's not going to be as interesting or as engaging as if you take a different approach. Bring a bit of yourself into the classroom. That's the Montessori approach, for example. It's the idea that teachers don't all have to be the same. (26:57 - 27:23) So do something a little bit different. Teach out of the box. Now, if you teach out of the box, you're dead. You're dead in the profession. You're dead named. I mean, you're dead named. You know, there's no colleague or student of mine, when I left out of the system, I was a great guy one day, and then nobody could say my name because they didn't want to be associated with me. So you're absolutely right. And this is why I've chosen to do what I'm doing. (27:23 - 28:07) And you too, because you play a very important role. It's people like you that are because the mainstream media is never going to talk about a story like mine or talk truth. So what I'm doing differently than other teachers is that I just, you know, I have nothing to lose. I'm fired. That I'm saying I'm taking you all on. I don't do the strength that you have with your physical strength and your black belt and all those things, but I have the courage and my convictions, and you know that. And you see me in action. And there's no there's no stopping point for me. And meaning that all this, this woke house of cards is going to collapse. (28:09 - 28:59) And we were having a discussion on that walk that we took in Kamloops. And I made a comment to you based upon my observations from your book, from your case, from everything I've heard from my wife over the years. And I guess maybe I'm an old fashioned guy or maybe I'm just a guy who actually believes in education that works. In my opinion the crumbling of our educational system started years ago when teachers were no longer allowed to discipline students. And then from there, you were no longer allowed to fail students. But as your case and others have made clear, we have now reached a point where you're no longer allowed to question students. If they have this yes, belief that's based upon affirming their feelings you can't question it. Even if you know for a fact that what they believe is wrong. And this is the real problem, Jim. (29:00 - 29:12) When I was a kid, when you were a kid, we could express an opinion in a classroom, no problem. But if our opinion, our belief was based upon false information the teacher would then correct us. And that is what the teacher was there to do. (29:14 - 29:49) But if you do that now, you get fired. Well you know that Mussolini with his black shirts and Hitler with his brown shirts and the school system with his infinite number of shirts, red, orange, rainbow, pink I could go on. They just have so many different coloured shirts. But they have all the kids and one day all wearing the same shirt. And really that's a metaphor for they've got all the kids marching forward without any pause, any reflection, any time for thinking. And they've got this new army, this woke army. (29:49 - 30:20) And it's not again about being educated. It's not about putting people on the moon or figuring out a cure for AIDS or some of the things that motivated us in the 70s or the 80s. It's about having kids going, trans rights rights for black people, rights for Muslims, rights for indigenous, rights for all these minorities. Which of course is a zero sum game. So every time you give more to this group, you're taking away from some other group. You give more land to this group, you're taking from some other group. (30:20 - 31:19) So I don't even think it's about education anymore. So that's the misconception. People have this idea that schools are schools. No, they're brainwashing centres or the high priests of wokeism. They are completely captured by people who should be in jail. Imagine, just I'm asking your viewers, not you because you're smarter than I am and you know all this. But can you imagine anything worse? It's not really my issue, but I spoke about it and I fought against this years ago, years ago, when they had drag queens, men who got aroused by being around little kids. They put them on their laps and bounced them up and down in schools. And then they'd be telling girls about puberty blockers and boys too and girls about chest binders. I mean, this was happening. A lot of the trans stuff and the gay stuff is being downplayed right now because there can be a tonne of lawsuits. There already are some. (31:20 - 32:35) But imagine anything worse when we were younger in school of a teacher enquiring into our sexuality, coming to us one and going, Jim, what is your sexuality? Do you like girls? Do you like boys? Are you they or them? Because we need to know starting in kindergarten, we need to know what your pronouns are. They're still doing that in all schools. I know that because I have all these grandsons and they know about all this stuff. The pronouns, instead of doing normal things at school, they're painting their sidewalk or benches at the school in the rainbow colours. Again, it's my three-year-old grandson experience about how they cut their hair off. Of course, they don't say that the only reason they would ever cut the hair of an Indigenous child back in school is that that kid's infesting everybody else with lice. And you never see photos of bald Indigenous kids at residential school. So the whole thing is a complete lie. I mean, you know, several times they did hair short to help. And imagine how matted some of these kids' hair was when they didn't wash ever. They were on a trapline for four months in the summer chasing caribou. I mean, they just have no intention of telling kids the truth about anything. (32:35 - 33:13) Which leads to the concept of what you've called here safetyism. And I like that term. I'm going to read once again a quote. Safetyism means that fewer topics are on the table and open debate is a relic from the past. It means students are safe from any thought that is remotely distasteful to them, safe from thinking, safe from truth, safe from challenge, safe from criticism, safe from errors, safe for propaganda, and may I add then, safe from learning anything. It's insanity, Jim. (33:16 - 33:35) You know, I think the statistic now is that something like 17% of kids graduating from high schools in Canada are functionally illiterate. We would never have imagined such a thing when we were kids. If you got through high school, you came out able to read, write clearly, do basic arithmetic, knew at least some basic science and history. (33:36 - 34:05) And we all agreed on the facts. And there's another comment I want to make. History. You're a history teacher. What's the definition of history, Jim? Well, the definition of history has become more history because there's no longer any history was looking back at the past, at events, figures, movements, ideas, and so forth, in an honest way. Because you wouldn't want to misinform. (34:05 - 34:47) Of course, none of us knows history flat out and we learn more as time goes on about the past. We do our best. And now, we don't even have history classes really. So my example, I was at a school called Panorama Ridge for a long time in Surrey. And I was a history teacher because I did other things, French and English and stuff. But I was a history teacher over time mainly because I could always do acting, put on plays, and do fun stuff with kids. I did some pretty wild stuff on my days. The worst thing I ever did, as it says in the book, is I went with senior students into a cave, like in Dead Poets Society, and we drank and all night read poetry. And then in the morning, we danced around a fire. (34:48 - 34:55) Sometimes I was out there when it was freer. Now, I'm just still trying to have fun with kids. But I'm so constricted. (34:57 - 36:23) The fun thing about history changed. So here I was teaching history, and it was called World History or Modern Western Civilisation, names like that. And I was teaching history of the whole world. And that's what I went to do in Abbotsford because that excited me the most because there was just no end to what I could learn about history everywhere. And then put it into interesting theories about, as well-known historians have done now, like in the book Sapiens by Harari and whatever, this idea of trying to make sense of it all for students of all of history. And so here I was teaching history class, and then people were saying to me, oh, we don't really want to have history anymore. And I said, what? What happened to the history class? They said, no, no, no, we're going to call it, we're just going to have social justice classes. And they're going, well, no, that's stupid, and whatever. So there are a few teachers that said, no, we're going to continue to teach history, and we got some support. And then the department head would say to all teachers like that, say, no, we're just not getting kids. They want to take social justice. They don't want to take history. And then, of course, now it's indigenous history. You want to take indigenous history. And you say, it's nothing to do with, kids are normal. It's not because they don't want to learn regular history. And they learn absolutely nothing in social justice, or nothing outside of how bad people who look like us are our ancestors. Somehow I'm guilty for every single thing a white person did back in time. (36:24 - 36:58) And it's not that. Kids are normal. They go, crap, if I take history with McMersery, I've got to write an essay. I've got to do this reading. I've got to do these tests. I've got two exams. I have to listen in class. And if I don't listen in class, or start talking to the teacher in a nice way, he's going to say, oh, John, I'm talking. And far better to go into social justice classroom than an indigenous classroom, where it's a teacher who has no intention of doing anything outside of these stupid tropes about how wonderful life was. (36:59 - 37:21) Pre-colonialism, pre-conduct here in North America, where they don't talk about the reality of the fact that there was starvation and headhunters, and you didn't know where your next meal was going to come from, and the most advanced technology was fur around poles, and a rock obsidian arrowhead, or a dugout canoe. No, no, no. It was just so eating-like. (37:21 - 38:19) It was just so beautiful. So what these kids are doing, well, I know I'd learn a lot with McMurtry or some teacher like him, but I don't want to work hard. And I want an easy mark. I want a great mark. And I want to just sit in class all day and look at my phone and chat with my friends, and when it comes to any evaluation, it's just a group project. So we'll find someone in the classroom who will do all the work. That's how a lot of kids are motivated. They take the easiest path to anything. And I'm not blaming young people. I was the same. But I had good parenting, and I had good teachers. And the moment, I remember one time, I did something wrong at a rugby game, and a number of the players were really hard on the referee at a rugby game, and it was wrong, and we'd never done that before, because we were good kids. And the principal brought us in, and he said, it's not a big deal. Got a complaint. And he looked at us, and he said to us, do you understand why it was wrong? And we were all, well, yes, sir. (38:19 - 38:26) It was all wrong. We won't do it again. And he just said, good. Fine. That's all I need to say. Because if it happens again, you're out of my school. (38:28 - 39:44) But we have standards. We have values. My father or mother never said to me, oh, look, you did something wrong here, but I want to know your feelings. I want to know, no, you did something wrong, and if you do it again, the punishment is going to be severe. Yes. As Jordan Peterson said, very perceptively, he said, no means that if you persist in doing what you're doing, something's going to happen that you won't like. And that's what no has to mean to a child. And the problem that we have here now with these standards being taken away is, and you're right, Jim, it's not the kid's fault. I can certainly remember being a teenager and wanting things to be as easy as possible. The only way we could get the kids to actually do anything is if there were consequences for not doing anything. Well, we've taken those consequences away. As far as I can see, the only kids now who suffer consequences for not actually studying are the ones where their parents are paying attention and want to see their assignments and want to see what they're doing. But the school certainly isn't going to hold them accountable. No, but I think it's important to say that I, as a teacher, and almost all my colleagues wanted to hold the kids accountable. But this is what happened. (39:44 - 39:56) So I had one kid in a class in grade 9, and his name was Nehan. I can't remember his name exactly. But anyhow, he's a big kid, sitting with his feet up on the desk. (39:57 - 41:05) Sometimes he'd lie right on the desk. Right in during class. He'd make noises. So I'd, you know, go whatever. He was never taken out of my class. He keyed my car twice. Every time I complained about it, it was all back in me. I had to sit and look through the tape in the parking lot, because no one would do it for me. Because the mother was the complainer. And the mother said, you know, my kid has got some issues, or whatever like that. But, you know, other teachers let him be, and the problem was me. So I left the school. That's why I went to Abbotsford. I just got to the end of the school district to realise that the moment a teacher starts to discipline a kid, or starts to do something right, someone's going to complain. The kid's going to complain, or the parent's going to complain. And then the principal's going to do a what? You upset a child? You upset a parent? How dare you? And even when my key was card twice, it's cost me a lot of money. And I said I was going to school, so I'm going to fight you for that. I'm going to get money for you. And I did. But of course, it made me, it made them also tore me. I'm just a guy who's got a backbone. (41:06 - 41:26) And that kid was never punished for it. So my point is, teachers, they realise the best thing to do is just, if you want to get paid and pay your mortgage and survive in this world, it's pretty hard to lose a job and get back in the system. Because then you acquire a bad reputation. (41:27 - 42:29) So it's harder to get a job. So all these people are putting up this stuff is nonsense. So look, I've lived that. I lived it long before I was fired in Abbotsford. The people who run the school system, I think, generally speaking, could spend time in jail. I mean that. I mean that sincerely. And an argument. You pry into children's sexuality in front of other children, even making it worse. I think that is something that needs to be dealt with by the law. And I, it's just unbelievable, but if you're a teacher, and you don't go along with it, and you go, I had one kid, one girl, and she, oh my gosh, she just didn't, she was caught up in this transition. And I knew it. I knew she was. And I talked to her, and I brought her aside, and I was getting in trouble for it. And I said, what do you want to be called? And she said, I'm not really sure, but you can call me by my girl name. And that's what I did. And that really bothered my principal. But that's what, she was a girl. (42:30 - 43:14) But everybody was rewarding her in the school system for transitioning. Her parents were that type, oh my god, transitioning, look how liberal and progressive, and oh my gosh, how forward thinking I am. Principals are going, I've got four trans kids, how many do you have at your school? And they're just running up the flagpole. Look how, it's all virtuous, and it's all about using kids to make them look like they're more moral and progressive and better than everybody else. And that's what Trudeau did with the people in the trucker convicts. Almost everybody where I lived got upset about the way that truckers are being treated. I couldn't even get to the protests where I lived in Surrey. And there's one by the border. People protesting. (43:14 - 44:34) There's one huge one. Because everybody in Surrey was trying to get to the protest. And there was just miles and miles of stepped cars on the road. And then what did our Prime Minister do? What did the elite in Canada do that framed every ordinary Canadian as racist and insurrectionist and misogynist and just all these stupid, ugly words. They're treasonous. They're against, the people who lead the school system, the people who lead our country are leading it away. And the best example of all is what we talked about also, Will. And I still love, I know I'm talking too much. I'd love to hear that one quote that you really like. But the fact that you can be in Kamloops or Richmond or Sechelt or all over British Columbia right now and all of a sudden you wake up one day and the government goes, oh, I'm sorry that this band is claiming this migrant band that only took the land 50 years before Europeans arrived from some other band, probably exterminated the band, is claiming all your land. And so all your money, which is in many cases is invested just in your house, is going to be taken away from you. But, you know, Indigenous title is very important because we have a new religion. And wokeism, we're giving a new name for it in Canada. It's called reconciliation. It's all about reconciliation. (44:34 - 44:49) So we can torture you and kill you and put Tamara Leach in jail, have her sleep in solitary confinement for four nights on concrete. Again, don't you understand? This is reconciliation. This is about Canada being progressive. (44:50 - 45:22) Right. Of course, now they started out with truth and reconciliation. But as you and I both know, there's no truth involved here. I do want to return briefly to the concept of history. And I'm harping on this with a purpose, Jim. My own wife has a degree in British political and military history. And one of the things I learned from her is that history is defined as that which was written down. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean that was written down shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt or investigated, because the other thing that she taught me was history is written by the victor. And so sometimes what we read is not reliable. (45:23 - 45:42) But at least it is a record. A record that was written down a long time ago and that we can look at as being a much closer observation of those events than what we have from here. But what we're replacing that with is, well, for example, when we were in Kamloops, we were talking about the knowledge keepers who are claiming all of these abuses at the schools. (45:42 - 47:30) It's entirely verbal accounts, either claimed firsthand accounts or hearsay accounts from other people. There's nothing written down. And in fact, if we wanted to look at this whole residential schools narrative from the perception of history, that which is written down, everything points to this whole thing being a farce. We have the death records of the students who supposedly died, were murdered or buried at that school. We know where they died. We know where they were buried. And it certainly wasn't at the school. We have zero records of a parent ever going to the police, the RCMP, and reporting their child missing. We have zero bodies found. In terms of anything that can be written down, the entire narrative is shown to be false. But the schools don't care about that. They're so wrapped up in their virtue signalling that history has now become whatever we say it is. And we've seen what that's happened before in the past, when societies got to that point of history is now whatever we say it is. And here's where I'm going with this, Jim. You had the intellectual honesty to tell your kids the truth. Now, if you go and look at things like the rise of communism in many countries back when we were kids, one of the first things they did was burn the books and execute the intellectuals, the academics, the people who actually knew history, knew the truth. Isn't this symbolically the same thing? You, Jordan Peterson, a lot of other people who told the truth, and you've been symbolically executed, silenced. So that new truth, whatever they say it is, cannot be questioned. (47:33 - 47:48) Well, I agree with you entirely. You know, when China became unified, the first thing that the new leader did was give them all shovels. Give all the scholars, all the teachers shovels. (47:49 - 50:28) They dug their own grave. They're alive, because this is what you do. You don't want children to think. If I had to say in one sentence what schools do more than anything else you're supposed to do is to get kids to think better. They're not even wanting kids to think. Of course not. Which leads us beautifully, once again, into another quote from your book. And this is getting into your persecution. My superintendent, who never agreed to speak with me and learn my side of the story, wrote me a nasty letter which accused me of a, quote, troubling lack of remorse for the harm I had caused my students. And then you go on to, quote, Conrad Black, where he said, the only basis on which anyone could claim to be harmed would be in a sense that has never been legally actionable in a free society, hurt feelings. Now this is once again very relevant to what we were just talking about. Because when you look at communist takeovers in history, it was all a control agenda. And by erasing the history, by making the people ignorant, by turning them all into poor unarmed farmers, it was easy to control them. So the weapon this time around is hurt feelings. If you hurt someone's feelings, you will be symbolically executed. Because those feelings are the control agenda. Yeah, I think it's an absolutely fascinating thing. And they've used that long before this new woke cult. It was the fact that you had, long ago, people always saying, you know, that this word or this image we had 2000 years ago, the iconoclasts, people going around busting images. You had people in the time of Muhammad in Mecca, you going around and smashing the idols from the old gods because Muhammad brought in this monotheism. And so it's absolutely fascinating for me is none of this is new. But right now, the idea is all through history, there have been people who have wanted to control others. The best example of all is the Muslim religion. Because the word Islam means submission, means control. (50:29 - 50:45) And the word Muslim means somebody who submits, somebody who's willing to be controlled. There's always been people who are going to control us for their own benefit, who are going to exploit us. And they're always going to be people. (50:45 - 51:44) Maybe a large part of the population are going to have a slave mentality and are going to go along with it. The sad thing for children is they're not old enough or wise enough or trained enough to recognise when people are exploiting them for sexual or political or social or whatever personal gain. They're not smart enough to understand that this is history. Whether it's recently with some guy trying to get a kid into a van with candy or an emperor long ago trying to justify his wealth and somebody else's or other people's lack of wealth. It's the same idea. We need to resist what Lord Acton said so famously that power corrupts and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely. (51:44 - 52:53) The school system would not have been turned over to the people that taught. Like universities where in the U.S. university presidents are paid many millions of dollars. They're turning education over to people who are using it for their own advantage. We're using it to exploit children. We're using it as a cudgel to hit teachers and latent teachers and professors on the head for stepping out of line. It's the most basic thing of all. People need to question authority. That's why we're so lucky. The two of us my God did we get along because we're just two guys who love freedom. We chatted. We didn't always agree. We trusted each other. We were nice to each other. We supported each other. We had a really great moment. I'm feeling that right now here. We owe this to others. We owe the fact that we were educated. To our parents, to our neighbours, to our friends, all sorts of people. We are lucky to be who we are. To live where we are. (52:53 - 53:47) To live at this time in history. To live most fundamentally in a democracy. Nobody should take it for granted. Nobody should just go, oh well, yeah, the school system has been taken over by these high priests of wokeism and they're just manipulating kids and talking about sexuality and race and indigenous stuff and banning literature and smearing history and defaming the dead. No, no. It's not good enough to put up with it. We need to fight back. We need to fight back right now. These people are charming children and the one thing you can't do in a legal sense in Canada is you can't ever, whether you're a parent or a counsellor, teacher in school, wherever you are and you're with children, you can't do anything that's contrary to their best interests. (53:49 - 54:32) The school system and the universities are no longer doing literally what's in the best interest of young people. Right. And this is where I think we've been leading through this whole conversation, Jim. We've talked about the degradation of the system and how they're not really teaching anything anymore. We've talked about how history has become whatever they say it is. And I want to read another quote. It's a very short one. Jeremy Bentham wrote that a censor, quote, risks nothing by prohibition, but everything by permission. Our educational system is now being run by censors, by the woke, those who silence anyone who says anything that they don't like. (54:33 - 55:28) And the easiest people now to pick on are those who actually rely upon facts. See, the reason why you and I and many of my viewers can think critically, at least in part, is because we actually do get an education. We actually do know there's such a thing as historical fact of that which can be proven. But what is being taught now? And the areas where, as once again, we get into this risk nothing but prohibition, but everything by permission, is the only thing that's being taught are the things which cannot be refuted. And we saw this when we went to the university, to Simon Fraser University, that day when we were all surrounded by screaming students. And it was encouraging in one respect, in that there was an Aboriginal student that was willing to engage with Frances in a discussion. And, in part, with myself. And we raised the issue. The issue here is that they're claiming, Simon Fraser University is claiming, there's 215 children there. (55:29 - 55:48) When even a year and a half ago, the band finally had at least the intellectual honesty to print a retracted statement that said, well, no, we found 215 anomalies. But we still have this university teaching that there's buried children there. And as soon as we presented that, of saying, this is the issue that they're representing as fact, something which has not been proven. (55:49 - 56:27) What did the student do? Oh, well, that's not the issue. The issue is that there was abuse. You see, they kept stepping back farther and farther and farther until they get to something that can't be refuted. Because it's all hearsay. It's all their claim. It's what they feel. It's what they want to believe. And we're not allowed to question it, risk nothing but prohibition, but everything by permission. So, as long as you silence people. And you just keep coming down on people, silence them, silence them, silence them. Okay, now those people are safe, the people who are in those administrative positions. But what ends up happening, is that we get to a point where there's no truth being taught in our schools at all. (56:30 - 59:07) Yeah, like the Martin Bailey example of, they say something outrageous and you object to it, and then they try and get you to agree on something that's less outrageous, but still outrageous. What do you mean, abuse at residential schools? There was abuse at all schools. But there was also a lot of good and true and truth and beauty and light and love and caring. There were orphans at these schools. There were kids who weren't being fed at home who were being abused at home that were taken. All of a sudden, they were cared for. This idea that we should lead with our descriptors of the residential schools in its negative ways is really crazy. And we saw that at, you said, Simon Fraser University, because that's where we're going. Because that's where we're going. Oh, I shouldn't say that. I think, well, I think we're going to end up at Simon Fraser, because you want to see WOKE come into Vancouver, UBC and SFU. I mean, the mind virus is even more so. If I could just sort of segue a little bit on that. I love the way people do this. Usually they just call you a racist and walk away. Or they say they can't answer back to you, and then you say they just kind of say something that's equally almost as absurd, and then just assume that everything's fine, and then they walk away. But I just want you to know, when they banned Kill a Mockingbird, effectively banned, they said, oh no, it's still possible to read, but you have to go through a gauntlet to be able to get into your classroom. So they banned Kill a Mockingbird, the most popular book ever in the history of the school district, and they banned it all over the place. And all sorts of good books are banned. I mean, the best books are all banned. And you think all the administrators, all the people high up in the history of the school system thought it was a good idea. I bet most of them were experiencing very severe cognitive dissonance and probably anguish. They were all decent about taking away. Because it used to be, you know, reading was a pretty basic thing you did in school. You want to get kids to learn how to read and love reading, because that's the best tool for learning. You can do it anywhere. You don't have a teacher following you everywhere. You can always find a book and sit and read. So I think it's an interesting thing that what they're doing is, they know a lot of what they're doing is wrong. But they are simply going to find something there that they're going to be able to justify. (59:07 - 59:22) And so what they do is they go, we're not going to talk about how good the book is. What a beautiful moral example against racial discrimination. What a beautiful writer. (59:24 - 59:37) We're not going to talk about all those things. We're going to say, there is the n-word. We got rid of the Lord of the Flies. (59:38 - 59:45) They changed Lord of the Flies. We got rid of Mice and Men. We got rid of tonnes of literature because of the n-word. (59:46 - 1:00:14) And now there's the r-word. And then there's the f-word. I mean, there's a letter word for so on. That noose is getting tighter and tighter, not just around thinking at school, but around the books. And now the only books kids read are about the stupidest things. It's always about white kids picking on an Indigenous or Black kid and those kids surmounting this horrible discrimination. (1:00:15 - 1:00:22) There's no good prose. There's no illusions. There's no quality writing. (1:00:23 - 1:01:15) I mean, it can be simple writing. You get Dr. Seuss, for example, or Roald Dahl writing Child and the Joy Factory. I mean, you can get low-level child literature that is just absolutely spectacular in the quality of language. Get rid of all that. Come on. They're not even publishing any more, any way in the world, six of Dr. Seuss's children's books. So they're just putting it out. It's just like everything is like in the Muslim world where they take a black marker to any, you know, oh, there's a woman showing her neck, showing her hands, showing her cheeks. You know, I mean, this is just absolute sickness that we think that this censorship advances us. (1:01:17 - 1:04:23) And you said something very revealing there, Jim. You said, they know they're wrong. And this is a case where I do want to quote something that happened in your persecution. This was later on, I believe this was in 2023 that this happened. And you were in a meeting and you said, during a water break, however, when both my wife and I were out of the room, I could hear the senior manager commanding the investigator to speed things up as he was anxious to get to an office Christmas party that afternoon. He also said, and this is the big one quote, McMurtry thinks he's smarter than everyone else in the room, which I interpret it to mean they know you're right. And so all they can do is attack your character because if they actually had to address the facts, they know they'd lose. Yeah, and that particular fact, they were making the argument that I agreed that I would not talk about my case. And I said to them in the meeting, can you show me that agreement? Can you show me where I wrote that down? Can you show me my signature? And they're going, oh, like that. And I said, oh, come on. I was just teasing you. Of course, you're lying and I never signed anything and I would never sign to muzzle myself because that's what I become. That's my life now. That's my imprint. That's my 15 minutes of Warholian Andy Warhol's everything has 15 minutes of fame. This is mine. This is mine right now. This is why you're interviewing me. I have done something that I think is good. Others think is wicked, including people in my own family. And that is that I am standing up against all these liars, all this dishonesty. And whether it's to kill a mockingbird, taking it out is better than keeping it in is absurd. Taking me out of the school system and taking away my salary and having me essentially destroyed as a professional, that's better than having me in the school system. These people, yeah, they know they're wrong. Of course they know they're wrong. No one has ever engaged me in an argument about residential schools. I'd say to them, okay, I've got maybe 50 publications and books. I've got a PhD at the University of Toronto. Come on, yeah. Tell me what I'm saying is wrong. Because I'm sure there's some things I get wrong. In which case I go to people who know more about residential than I. Whether a history professor or some legal professor or whatever. Somebody might say, well, this state is wrong. Okay, man, I'll quickly change. I'll check it. My point is that nobody will challenge me on all these things that they're hitting me over the head for doing, for saying. And that's it. That's exactly it, Will. It's just such a thing. (1:04:23 - 1:06:06) It's like the best little whorehouse in Texas. There's a moment where the sheriff is always lying, talking about doing a little sidestep. And that's how they're doing a little sidestep. There's nobody who has any brain cells that believes that as Murray Sinclair said, thank God for Canada for saying that there are 25,000 or more murdered and missing and disappeared children not yet found in Indian residential schools across Canada. The number is zero. We whittled it down to zero in about two seconds after Murray Sinclair, the great hero, and all these other people made it like it was the killing fields of Canada. But these people are never going to come around and say, oh, I was wrong. They're simply going to say, you know what? What you're not getting, Jim, is that these kids, they were culturally genocided. These kids should never have been put in those schools. And I go, so they shouldn't have had an education? That's what their parents want. So what do you... The parents signed an application. They're just dancing around. And that's the whole polite class in Canada. That's the whole leading Canada. That's anyone who's leading any institution. So people are after me, my regulatory body, my employer, now my union. And they're all playing this game that I'm a denialist, that you're a denialist, Will, and yet... And so this is not going to last. And it could. (1:06:06 - 1:06:39) You never know, because the media... There are no children buried there. There are no missing murdered children. I completely deny that entire narrative. It's bullcrap. And if they don't like that, then I challenge them to show some actual proof. That's the way... The onus is on the person making the accusation to provide proof. And no proof has been given. None at all. So yes, I'm a denier, and I'm damn proud to be a denier, because I believe in truth. (1:06:40 - 1:07:00) Yeah, and I'm old enough, Will, and I love that, and I'm old enough to have met a lot of teachers who work in the schools. Because I did my grad studies in the 80s, and there were a lot of teachers doing graduate work, because you get paid more if you get superior degrees. And I had great conversations. (1:07:01 - 1:07:35) And again, my thesis supervisor was Mark Carney's father, Dr. Robert Carney. And he never said anything negative about residential schools, which is our original sin now. David Eby's giving away all BC now to one small race because of residential schools. He doesn't know anything about residential schools. He just said they were despicable. I don't know a clue. You've never talked to a residential school teacher, because a residential school teacher would tell you, oh, we think we had some success with the kids. It's wonderful to give children a language that they didn't have before. Hygiene. (1:07:35 - 1:07:47) Teach kids how to sew, and how to work with wood, and how to grow plants. It's just the most absurd thing, as I said earlier. Everything is the complete opposite of the truth. (1:07:47 - 1:09:22) And yet these are the people that are leading all the institutions in Canada. Yes. So now I want to get to that quote from earlier in your book, the one that I've been saving, because, folks, I want you to listen closer to this. It goes on for a full paragraph, but it's well worth your time. This is the best summary I have ever read of everything that is wrong with our educational system. Pity the fool who incurs the wrath of the woke gods in schools by questioning race and gender indoctrination. The twin pieties of indigenisation and decolonisation. The daily land acknowledgements about how living on stolen land. The trickery of young Canadians into believing they have no private rights, since none of the land is theirs. The lowered academic and behavioural standards. The culling of literature. The abuse of language and history. The speech police masquerading as social justice warriors. The exaltation of students who reject their biological sex. The replacement of Christian traditions with the critical theory cult or Islamic totalitarianism. The claptrap about residential schools. The denunciation of capitalism and Western civilisation. The promotion of long disgraced and grotesque communism under the guise of equity. The destruction of Canada's once glorious international reputation. And the mockery of bedrock social values and the role of the nuclear family. Wow, Jim. That's inspired. Well, thank you. I had help. (1:09:23 - 1:09:34) I mean, I read a lot from a lot of great thinkers. And so I probably have borrowed a lot of those ideas from others. But I stand by all that. (1:09:34 - 1:11:29) And I just want to say to you that if people right now think this isn't a serious concern, then they just don't understand how important it is to educate children honestly in a democracy. And it's everything that we've been talking about today, Jim. If we don't put a stop to this, and it's already happening, but it's going to get worse. We're going to have children graduating from school with straight A's who know nothing, can barely even read, let alone think critically, who don't know the first thing about history or how to do basic math. What they do believe is that, well, white people are bad and we should hand over all of our land to the indigenous people and we should basically apologise for existing. This is going to cripple our society if we don't put a stop to it. But we are, Will. And I think you, Frances, me, Dallas, Brody, Tara. I mean, there's all these people who are different organisations now. We're considered to be extremists and all sorts of bad things. We just give it a bit of time. We are the small group of committed citizens that Margaret Mead said never changed the world, yet we're the only people that ever have. It's not the people at the top who vested interest and who are liking what they're doing. They're being paid ever more money and more power and then they can wish everybody else. They have their godlike and they can bless and they can abuse and they can give life and they can end life. (1:11:30 - 1:11:45) And that's what we're up against. But we know that we're on the right path. And so I'm feeling though I'm, again, never going to be in a classroom again. (1:11:47 - 1:12:43) I think I'm a phoenix that has arisen from its ashes. I think I've set an example for my students of those who care to listen to this, to follow me. And that is that you don't give up on your principles. And that you have to, as you said early, Will. What good are you as a human being if you don't have courage, if you don't do what we've always done in our lives? And we certainly see it in particular with Frances Whittleson and Dallas Brody. It really is better to, even in my case, I've died professionally. I died on that hill. But I'd far rather die in a principled way than live my life on my knees like a slave. Very well said, sir. (1:12:44 - 1:13:02) Folks, the book is The Scarlet Lesson. I strongly recommend it. It will not only tell you Jim's story of persecution, but in it, as you have heard today, there are many very perceptive thoughts on what's wrong with our educational system and what we're going to have to do to fix it. Jim, thank you so much for your time. It's a pleasure being with you as always, Will.