Will Dove  00:01 In 2020 until 2022, tens of thousands of Canadians were wrongfully dismissed from their jobs, for refusing to take an experimental injection. Most, simply do not have the resources to hire a lawyer to fight for the justice and reparation they deserve. And many still don't have those jobs back.   Will Dove  00:20 Beatrijs Penn was expelled from her psychotherapy practicum at St. Stephen's College at the University of Alberta in 2015. While her expulsion had nothing to do with lockdowns or vaccine mandates, it was nonetheless a wrongful dismissal. After spending $70,000 and 6 years with a lawyer, and losing, Beatrijs made the decision to appeal without a lawyer. She filed her appeal in 2021 in November of last year, two and a half years and only a few $1,000 in expenses, later, Beatrijs won her appeal, the judges ruled that she had indeed been wrongfully dismissed. While the courts have not yet decided upon damages, St. Stephen's College will almost certainly owe Beatrijs a substantial sum. Vaccine mandate wrongful dismissals were often made on the accusation of unprofessional conduct.   Will Dove  01:22 In this interview, which is very much the manual for how to successfully present yourself in court, you will learn how long you should expect the process to take, what it will cost in both time and money, and perhaps most importantly, the grounds in which you should seek justice.   Will Dove  01:47 Beatrijs, welcome to the show.   Beatrijs Penn  01:50 Thank you, Will. Thank you for having me.   Will Dove  01:51 And thank you so much for coming on. Because there have been, as I've said, in my introduction, there's been so many people in recent years who have suffered wrongful dismissal. Now, yours had nothing to do with the plandemic, that was before that, of course, but you took St. Stephen's College to court for wrongful dismissal and you won. If you would please start though, by telling us how all this started. Why were you at St. Stephen's College? What are you studying there? And what led to them wrongfully dismissing you?   Beatrijs Penn  02:22 I'll do it the best of my ability because it's my second language as you know.   Beatrijs Penn  02:32 I must say, it is not about COVID but it has the same structure. And so more than 10 years ago, I came here to Canada and I wanted to emigrate. And although I was very fast, how do you say that - accepted by the Canadian Counseling and Psychotherapy Association to be a certified counselor and psychotherapist because of all the credentials that I showed them. And they were all notary verified.   Beatrijs Penn  03:20 So, it was quite a bunch, because I had worked for over 25 years at that time, in psychotherapy in a big mental health institution in Amsterdam. And that same kind of organized mental health institution is in every big city of the Netherlands. And that had been, before that, during the time that I was working there, we had formed a workgroup, an action group because they wanted by the government to put the people on the waiting lists on antidepressants, and we had an action group from all the institutions in the big cities.   Beatrijs Penn  03:20 So, the inner work that people have to do not to behavioral changes, I don't know anything about that. When the inner feelings of a person changes about what has happened in his life, his behavior changes, because he put himself different to other people. You probably remember about 2007, 2008, there was a swine flu hoax. And there was also an experimental vaccine suggested. And we were alarmed. I was in action group of Belgian and Holland together.   Beatrijs Penn  04:28 And we started reading and reading and things like that and we found that antidepressants cause many symptoms but also dementia. And I was very aware of that and because I was a psychotherapist in the higher regions of the institution who had to go through all kinds of processes with the clients from the moment that they applied for therapy, we had all kinds of ways that we choose - this one is for the senior support, this one is for the youth, this one is for behavioral therapy. And I was in the section of insight giving therapy.   Beatrijs Penn  06:17 And in that group, in that action group to warn people about the experimental vaccine, that we didn't know what was in it. And we had no scientific evidence that it was safe and sound, safe and effective. We had a pharmacist, Fernand. And so Fernand was one of my co-activists. And he had a blog about antidepressants and antipsychotics, and he was already long time warning that the antidepressants and antipsychotics and all the mood and whatever pills were causing dementia.   Beatrijs Penn  07:09 And so, I know it from him. He was in my action group. And I even donated for his litigation because he was sued by the pharmaceutical industry at that time. So, already around 2007, 2008. And he won in court, because he suggested to the judge, could you ask an international lab to do experiments on rats with this compound or whatever it was with his chemical thing. And report on it. And the lab would say exactly the same thing as he had reported and put in his blog that our neurological system just dies off in our brain. Our neurons die in the brain when you take those medications of most even of Tylenol.   Beatrijs Penn  08:10 But anyway, that is for me I knew now. I'm investigating that one. But anyway, he was then freed from prison. He was in prison. Because he had stand on the toes of the pharmaceutical industry. But he was released because he had said the right thing. He was correct in what he had put in his blog already in that time. He had to hide because you know how the pharmaceutical industry is, even here in Canada, people have been killed for bringing the truth out.   Beatrijs Penn  08:54 In our land, in Europe, it's the same thing. The pharmaceutical industry is very powerful. So I knew about that in going to St. Stephen's College. It was so strange that every student was on medication. Many teachers, Professors we call them, were on medication. And they were openly admitting that and I was talking about why do you do that? Because this, and this, and this is known. So I was - and much more I always spoke up and the Professors did not like that.   Will Dove  09:46 You were to warn us, Beatrijs, you had a patient who was talking about going on antidepressants, and you caution them what you would read about them that they were potentially hazardous. You didn't tell them not to take them, you just told them the truth and said you might want to consider this. And is that pretty accurate about what happened?   Beatrijs Penn  10:09 No, there was one thing before that, this patient was at the alcohol anonymous for addictions. And she had heard that antidepressants could cause brain damage. She had read the book of David Wolfe. And at some point, during our counseling sessions, she had gone through a medical center, and after three minutes consultation with a doctor, she didn't know. And the doctor didn't know anything about her. Three minutes, doesn't give you much time to get to know each other. She was prescribed antidepressants, and she left them on the desk of the doctor and didn't take them.   Beatrijs Penn  11:06 And with that story, she came to my session, but that was in the hall, in the waiting room. So it was not on my video. And they heard her talk about that she didn't want it. And I said, well, the things that I said that you have read that there were big side effects and even brain damage if you take them. And my supervisor didn't like that because my supervisor had never been a supervisor and wanted me to be obedient to her. But how can I be obedient when I know more.   Will Dove  11:46 So, you were being conscientious, you were being a good psychotherapist, you were informing her the truth.   Beatrijs Penn  11:51 I followed my own conscience, and I didn't want to her to struggle. So I said those things, but they are 10 minutes, those snippets that you have seen, in the submissions of memorandum of judgment of the judges. Those were snippets of 10 minutes of a 60 minute session of eightish sessions. It's very parallel with COVID, these people Dr. Fauci, Hoffer and others.   Will Dove  12:29 Or all of the people who lost their jobs before because they refused to take injections. It's very much the same thing.   Beatrijs Penn  12:35 Yes, I'm one with them.   Will Dove  12:37 Once they expelled you from this program. And you were in the program. You explained to me before the interview, you come to Canada, the psychiatrists or whatever association it was, I can't remember what - CCPA?   Beatrijs Penn  12:49 CCPA is the Canadian Counseling and Psychotherapy Association.   Will Dove  12:54 Right. And so they had said, we'll license you, no problem based upon all the credentials you've had, but it was immigration Canada said, well, you need a master's degree.   Beatrijs Penn  13:02 Yeah, you need to have a master's degree. And my master's degree of 1973 was not fitting the boxes of the equalization process. So, it doesn't exist. So, all my history and all my accreditations did not exist, I had to start all over again. So, that's why...   Will Dove  13:25 I want to explain, that's the only reason why you were there is because some bureaucrat didn't have a box to check off for you. Because they were in a position where they could check off a box and that's all it was. And so, you had this therapy session with this person, it was an hour long, it was 10 minutes of that session of multiple sessions that you had with this person.   Beatrijs Penn  13:44 80, 80 sessions.   Will Dove  13:45 80 sessions. And on base of those 10 minutes. They expelled you from the program. Right. Okay. So what did you do at that point, Beatrijs?   Beatrijs Penn  13:54 First, of course, I was totally traumatized, thinking what's happening here? Where can I go? We're can I get help? For at St. Stephen's College, nobody wanted to talk with me. I was a leper. It was incredible. And then to the campus, to the human rights movement, they assumed I had made a mistake, because St. Stephen's College said so, so they didn't investigate properly. I went to all the academic student resources. They said we cannot help you because St. Stephen's College has its own regulations and doesn't belong to the University of Alberta. So I was totally on my own. And it took half a year and I still had not seen those 10 minutes of snippets because they didn't release me the evidence, as they call it, yeah? But the evidence was withheld, has been withheld for nine years. I haven't seen it yet.   Will Dove  15:17 And I think we have to clarify it here. The 10 minutes that you spent talking to this person, it was recorded on video. And they said, we can't release it for privacy reasons, but you were there. What could you possibly reveal that you didn't already know? You were there.   Beatrijs Penn  15:32 And the justice was saying in the court, there were three justices and they were really, women with integrity. I'm very happy I had good luck in that. Three women with integrity. And they even confronted the lawyer of St. Stephen's. And they said, she created that video. She knows everything about this client. This is not valid.   Will Dove  16:02 And at one point in time, for St. Stephen's even claimed it had been destroyed.   Beatrijs Penn  16:08 Yeah, yep.   Will Dove  16:09 Trying to cover up the evidence track. Because clearly, they knew they did not have a case. They were simply as - and I'm gonna put my own read on this Beatrijs and you can tell me if I'm wrong. But I think what was going on here was they were punishing you for refusing to be yet another psychotherapist, who would just write a prescription for pills, and here, here's some more product from Big Pharma.   Beatrijs Penn  16:29 But that hasn't come out in the court case. So, on a certain moment, I went through my FOIP request, because I want to see it. They even refused me to show it while the FOIP request is an Act, it is an illegal Act, is a valid Act here. They refused me to show that. And when I was going through all those, selected, because I asked all, and they only give me a selection of things. I found a few correspondent things that I used in my court case, that they were conspiring behind my back, to get me out as soon as possible.   Beatrijs Penn  17:21 But it took years before I could connect the dots together to get out of my trauma, to become clear in my mind, to overview the piles of papers that I have, because you always get a very formal letter - you have gone through the procedures, and you have done your story. And that's it. But in my letter at the first of June, when I would have the disciplinary meeting with the Dean, I said, the first thing that we have to do is to act professionally. And that is that my supervisor has to talk with me and the client to see what has really happened because everybody has opinions and judgments and is making me the bad guy or bad woman. And pointing at me and I was persona non grata. And they were even - when I was going through the FOIP Act, all my things, there were people that were yelling at me, you don't belong here, you are expelled, you have to go and things - three months after my expulsion. It was horrible.   Beatrijs Penn  18:39 But anyway, when I had seen there were links that there had been something going on behind my back, I took a lawyer, I took a renowned lawyer, Simon Renouf. He's known here for an administrative lawyer, but administration law is something else then all the other laws. So, you're very restricted, so we had to go through the loops of administration law. And that is asking for a new review of a selected panel of St. Stephen's College. And I was hoping that that two times that selected panel of St. Stephen's College would give me a go for finishing my studies because I was almost ready. I had to do one course, maybe 80 hours of practicum. And my thesis that the subject was already agreed upon. So what they did is yeah, in bad fate.   Beatrijs Penn  19:13 Right. So, when you hired this lawyer, how long does that process take? What that cost you? And what happened?   Beatrijs Penn  20:01 In 2018, so I was expelled in 2015. In 2018, we had our first court case, took three years.   Will Dove  20:09 I need you to back up, at what point did you hire the lawyer?   Beatrijs Penn  20:17 I think 2017.   Will Dove  20:20 Okay, so a year later, roughly, before you first got declined...   Beatrijs Penn  20:24 A little bit more.   Will Dove  20:25 Right. Please continue.   Beatrijs Penn  20:29 And it was hard to find someone because I called around and they don't want to go after institutions. It was really hard to find someone. And then Simon Renouf took the case after I had first been refused by him. And then well, as you may know, by now, I follow up, I follow up, I follow up. So I didn't let go. I'm like a terrier. I keep a piece of the pants in my beak, in my mouth and I don't let go. And so when he started writing letters in 2017, it took till 2018 to go to court. And then yeah, and the first Justice, had really to the point questions.   Beatrijs Penn  21:40 She said, I want to know whether the recording was before or after Beatrijs had her evaluation from her supervisor? And she said, since you have accepted her and she's almost ready, and she has paid for all her courses. If she hasn't done the right thing, then educate her to do better. But St. Stephen's College didn't want me. So there was not a nice thing. They couldn't give the right date of the thing. And within the court session, she decided that St. Stephen's College had to take me back. So she didn't accept it. But then, it was very clear that St. Stephen's College didn't want me. And they were doing everything.   Beatrijs Penn  22:48 So they were offering me Minister diplomas, just to get rid of me. But they are United Church, divinity College, as they call them. And I am a psychotherapist. I'm not a minister. Yeah? And they have their circle. So I wouldn't have had a chance in that circle. So, I refused their minister diplomas to make a kind of settlement or something. And we had to go to court again. So then, before going to court, they had to make a new panel of St. Stephen's College. But everybody in St. Stephen's College is biased. They all know me. The drums are going fast there.   Beatrijs Penn  23:48 And so they made a new panel, the panel said that although my lawyer was very accurate in the mistakes that the Dean had made openly in the pieces that he brought for the panel. But he still said that the Dean had done the right thing. So we had to go to court again. And that was for Justice Sulyma. And that was then COVID had started, so that moved the courts very slow. It had a backlash on the court, is that could how you say it?   Will Dove  24:36 A backlog? That's what you mean?   Beatrijs Penn  24:38 A backlog?   Will Dove  24:39 When was this, Beatrijs? It was 2017, you heard of alert; 2018, you went to court for the first time over a year later. Now we're already into COVID, so it's at least 2020?   Beatrijs Penn  24:47 In 2020. The court appeal panel dismisses my thing. And then I had to go to court in 2021, May 2021 for Justice Sulyma and she sided with St. Stephen's College. It was in a zoom session, I don't have a cell phone, so I couldn't reach my lawyer. And there were things going on that were that for me as an observer they were horrific, because Justice Sulyma was saying all the time St. Steph's, which is kind of you say that when you are of the inner circle. You don't say that as a judge, you say St. Stephen's College. So there was something going on that I thought, oh, my God, she's biased. And I couldn't reach my lawyer. And she took everything for real, the opinions and the judgments of the lawyer of St. Stephen's College, about things that he had never investigated and checked with the CCPA, with other things, and I had other evidence about.   Beatrijs Penn  26:18 And on a certain moment, it was really a theater performance. I was looking like, what is this? Oh, someone had texted him as full that there was in the court, that there was a copy of the recording at St. Stephen's College. So that was in 2021. And I had been expelled on 2015. So they had that for six years. And they said, it was only for - it was protected, only a few people could see it. The staff, and but it had no date. And I made recordings with a date printed on them. I don't know how you call it, but it was in the recording thing.   Beatrijs Penn  27:25 So I said then it is a copy. It's not a real one. And my lawyer tried to get that thing on the table and have it reviewed by the panel, but I still hadn't seen it. And he neither. So we didn't know how bad it was. That 10 minutes of recording. And then Justice Sulyma sided with St. Stephen's College. And there I was, again at square one. And I had already paid $70,000 to my lawyer.   Will Dove  28:07 I just want to clarify something, Beatrijs. This recording, you had a recording. And that recording had the timestamp on it, it had the date and time?   Beatrijs Penn  28:17 No, I didn't have the recording in my personal files because I had to leave everything at the community counseling center.   Will Dove  28:24 What I'm saying is when you were there, you know a recording was made that had a timestamp on it.   Beatrijs Penn  28:29 Yes.   Will Dove  28:30 Yes. And then you said that the one that was supposedly in possession of St. Stephen's College that they had refused to show in the courtroom. You heard this one did not have a timestamp on it.   Beatrijs Penn  28:39 That's right.   Will Dove  28:40 There's a discrepancy there. Which means, which is to me, as somebody who can do video editing, somebody might have messed with that recording. And that's why they didn't want you to see it.   Beatrijs Penn  28:49 Oh, not only that, I think you're right. And not only that, they had - that was part of my defense in court as part of my, how do you say that, gory sort of process. They had violated the Affordable Care Act. You always have to ask permission of the person who is on the video, whether it can be shown to somebody else. My supervisor, and St. Stephen's hadn't done that. So they were in violation of using her information, my client's information. So I think that was a part of it too.   Will Dove  29:43 So let's just recap. 2015, they expel you because they were looking for an excuse because you refuse to just write prescriptions for antidepressants. You told the patient the truth.   Beatrijs Penn  29:54 No, as a psychotherapist, I cannot write prescriptions. There's only a certain psychologist who can, that is a surgeon but as a psychotherapist I never write prescriptions.   Will Dove  30:08 Thank you for clarifying. But what you did...   Beatrijs Penn  30:12 I told you the truth.   Will Dove  30:14 Okay, and that's all you did. And I want to clarify once again, you did not tell this patient not to take them. You just told them the information that you had that they should probably consider. That's all you did.   Will Dove  30:15 That's why they expelled you, when you were almost done with the program. And you then went through starting from 2017 to 2021, a four-year period, $70,000 to a lawyer, and the final judgment was against you. Right. Okay. So at this point in time, your funds are exhausted. But as you say, you're a bulldog, you're not gonna let this go. So now, we get into the story of you presented yourself. Please tell us what happened. How you did that?   Beatrijs Penn  30:58 Right on the day that I went to my lawyer's office, that he showed me the verdict of Justice Sulyma. And that we've lost, I paid him the remainder of the fee that I owed him. And I said, I will appeal this. The day after, but then still, it took about two years to get my case in the dockets of the appeal court. So the day that I knew it, I said I'll appeal this because it's not right. And at that moment before all things started that I was all alone, that I was looking for lawyers. Even I tried in near Calgary, but I'm just a small fish. So they didn't want to do it. They want to make big money.   Beatrijs Penn  32:02 Because when I called them, the secretary right away said, we are too expensive for you. So I said, can anyone else? But it was very hard to find anyone else. So whatever happened, I said, then I'll make my steps alone. And I met a man called Leo. And he helped me set up my case, according to common law. So that means that you go for the harm and damage down to you. Yeah? So it's common...   Will Dove  32:59 Let me make sure I'm understanding because common law is used as a term in Canada, in our legal system to refer to precedent, previous judgments, and that becomes common law. Is that what you're referring to? Or is this something different?   Beatrijs Penn  33:15 No. I am referring to the old sessions. There is a difference between common law that is a law of the land, the law of sovereignty. And the legal system is based on morality. And that is a law of commerce.   Will Dove  33:43 Is Leo a lawyer?   Beatrijs Penn  33:45 No.   Will Dove  33:46 No. So, what was his background? What was his expertise to help you with this?   Beatrijs Penn  33:52 No, I cannot say that here.   Will Dove  33:54 Okay, that's fine.   Beatrijs Penn  33:55 We have to ask him.   Will Dove  33:56 Leo gave you some advice. And you then I assume...   Beatrijs Penn  33:59 Not a bit, not some, we work together for a few months, day after day after day, from ten to five to go through my papers to find everything that had been dismissed or not honored or on whatever layer it was.   Will Dove  34:27 There's a really important point that I think we need to cover because what I wanted to do with this interview, Beatrijs, is give people the realistic idea of what it would be like to present yourself. So you spent months with Leo's help, going through all of the evidence, putting all that evidence together, organizing it I assume so then read, cross-reference it, said you bring this all up in your appeal. So it's months and months of work just to prepare for it.   Beatrijs Penn  34:54 I will tell you what we said in factum because I have to present my paper as much as I can in their administrative forms. So first was the factum, and they asked, and a points of law, and I'll tell you what I said, I am not, I have not studied law. I am a foreigner. English is not my mother tongue. I am a competent woman, and I cannot fulfill this part of the factum. I respectfully request to allow me to state the most important issues that I believe that improper intention has led to impermissible actions by St. Stephen's College, in regards to my expulsion from St. Stephen's College. I respectfully request that this appeal will be allowed in court. And further discovery can take place in court in order that the judges can apply the correctness test. And that's something else than reasonable tests.   Will Dove  36:12 It is, in fact, I know all about that, because I've done interviews with Michael Alexander, that representing Mark Trozzi, and a number of other people with the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons. And that's exactly what he's going after, the one that is correctness. So that was very smart to go after that.   Beatrijs Penn  36:30 Correctness test, as mentioned, and their intelligent judgment to judge whether as a see as fulfilled that lawful duty. And that is correct procedures. So, we have gone through all my evidence, what I thought was evidence and all my papers, piles. And then I will tell you also the introduction, because that's common law. This is a really common law. And this is not legalese. Legalese, I have seen it in front of my eyes, that the lawyer of St. Stephen's College and my lawyer, we're just competing to win, to get the judge be on their side, and to win even on opinions and judgments and not facts.   Beatrijs Penn  36:43 Right. And that is the difference. So, I'll tell you, in fact without oath at court are without a verified truth. Justice Sulyma has, without verified facts in her decision, for no persons were placed under oath, and no documents, this is my first point, were notarized, nor identified under oath to be true and accurate, without penalty of perjury. So, everybody can say anything. I wish to remind you, I am a foreigner, native of the Netherlands, English is not my mother's tongue. And it is my custom of law, which is really true. Also, maybe not now because also in Holland now the courts are not straight anymore, not on integrity anymore.   Beatrijs Penn  38:22 And also the English common law custom to establish facts and testimony by people placing themselves under oath, and with notarized documents. I do admit, as a foreigner, I was an idiot at your court. But I'm a competent woman. Without oath and verification, half truth, lies and deceit may flourish at court, without consequences to the wrongdoers and hearsay information may become accepted as fact and truth. I did witnessed that, this did occur at Justice and Justice Sulyma's court. This was also the common practice to St. Stephen's College sentence.   Will Dove  39:10 So now, once again, I want to sum up, you've spent months going through all the documents, all the paperwork, all the evidence, but what you were looking for was correctness of procedure. And you found several cases where they did not follow correct procedure. So now, I want to try to get a timeline correct. Now, all of this research you did, all your months of research, I assume you did that before you filed your request for appeal.   Beatrijs Penn  39:37 No, I did it after. Because my request for appeal, I did right away when Justice Sulyma had said, less than a week, I had appealed.   Will Dove  39:50 2021, you met with your lawyer, you made the final payment to him. He told you you've lost. How long after that did you file your appeal?   Beatrijs Penn  39:57 That same day.   Will Dove  39:58 Same day. Okay.   Beatrijs Penn  39:59 Because I know it is not correct.   Will Dove  40:02 And then how long before you were given a court date?   Beatrijs Penn  40:08 I don't remember but it took several months.   Will Dove  40:11 And during those several months, you were doing all of this research?   Beatrijs Penn  40:14 Yes.   Will Dove  40:15 Okay.   Beatrijs Penn  40:16 I'm trying to find lawyers and I didn't succeed. And then I thought, okay, I have to do it myself. It doesn't matter what I do, but I have to get my ducks in a row.   Will Dove  40:27 Okay, so when did the appeal hearing take place?   Beatrijs Penn  40:33 On the memorandum of judgment, oh, that hearing took place on the 4th of May 2023.   Will Dove  40:42 Okay, so, two years later, you finally got your appeal hearing?   Beatrijs Penn  40:47 Yeah.   Will Dove  40:48 Okay. Now, please run us through what happened on that day because you went into that courtroom without a lawyer.   Beatrijs Penn  40:56 I had Leo next to me. We had gone through, he was my assistant. But he was not a lawyer.   Will Dove  41:02 Neither of you were lawyers. So, you went into that court of appeal, neither of you are lawyers, please tell us what happened.   Beatrijs Penn  41:14 I felt I was very blessed with their three judges. Shall I say their names?   Will Dove  41:22 I see no reason why not. They ruled in your favor, did they not?   Beatrijs Penn  41:26 Yeah, the Honorable Justice Patricia Rowbotham, the Honorable Justice Dawn Pentelechuk, and the Honorable Justice Bernette Ho, they were three female judges. And I made my speech. And only two weeks before we had to go to court at 4th of May of 2023, I found by going through all those papers and papers and papers and trying to find the motive. And I hadn't done the correct procedure. But I walked them through all that. I can send you my speech if you want. All the procedural mistakes that St. Stephen's College made from the College, from the recently practicum manual, and personally from the supervisor.   Beatrijs Penn  42:34 You know, you don't dismiss somebody who you have supervised for over a year by just reading a paper saying not negotiable, which my supervisor did. And tell me in the paper that I was not allowed to contact my clients. And I was dismissed. And so I was in shock. I couldn't - I said, can we talk about this? No, we can't talk about this, not negotiable. So I gave it to her and went and that was used against me. She was in stook. I wasn't, I was in shock. I had never seen this in Holland before.   Beatrijs Penn  43:20 And you know, you have been in emergency when people are in shock, they freeze. They can also start being aggressive but I couldn't afford. And all the layers where I thought there were procedural...   Will Dove  43:45 Mistakes or omissions?   Beatrijs Penn  43:46 Mistakes or omissions or what they promised in the calendar of St. Stephen's College, they didn't do. Omissions is exactly a good word. I went through that in my speech, and I was over three quarters of an hour, which is more than is permitted. And the judges were very lenient on me, because I hadn't gone through the right procedure to bring in a new evidence that I started to get a motive together. And I had noticed that to the case manager and the case manager said that I had to file something else and it was too much, two weeks before that.   Beatrijs Penn  44:34 So I went to court without having done that. And the judges were so lenient to me to say that they were contacted by the case manager that I had new, and I said yes about the motive of my supervisor. And they adjourned the meeting, if it would have happened to a lawyer, the case was dismissed. But they were very lenient to me. And they said, okay, we'll see you back in November. And you'll have to give us all the information about that motive. And I did. So we had a second part with Leo that we were a day and night, because it's a lot of work.   Will Dove  45:18 Well, the court gave you more time in order to - I assume to file the proper papers?   Beatrijs Penn  45:24 No, the first we're accepted, but I had to add on the motive.   Will Dove  45:33 Okay, so even though, when you went in, in May, there was at least one paper that you had not filed that the court wanted. The judges would had heard your case anyway.   Beatrijs Penn  45:43 They heard three quarters of an hour, I was admitted to talk.   Will Dove  45:48 Okay. So I think that's an important point to make that even though you made a procedural error, they were still willing to listen to you. To make a just decision based on the evidence you gave them?   Beatrijs Penn  45:59 Yes.   Will Dove  46:00 Because I think that shows that not all of our judges are corrupt. Some of them are not, some of them do want as you said, to administer justice.   Beatrijs Penn  46:07 These three justices were not, they have integrity.   Will Dove  46:12 Okay. So now...   Beatrijs Penn  46:14 So they gave me until 20th of November, and I went to the second time on the 20th. And it was funny. When they stopped at 4th of May, my speech, because I hadn't done the correct procedure, the lawyer of St. Stephen's College was, "yeah, and I have prepared and now she has to pay for this." And the middle judge, Judge Pentelechuk, said, "we'll see about that." He didn't get a chance.   Will Dove  46:59 I'm going to assume, I'm going to jump ahead here, I'm gonna assume the reason that he didn't get a chance is because the judges listened to your testimony. And you made it clear that the St. Stephen's College had made procedural errors in dismissing you. And that's correctness. And so, on the basis of correctness, the judges ruled in your favor, because St. Stephen's College did not follow correct procedure.   Beatrijs Penn  47:22 That's correct.   Will Dove  47:25 Right. We're here to jump at the thing that Steven is going after the CPSO on behalf of Mark Trozzi, correctness, and I have a pretty good feeling he's gonna win that one. Same thing.   Beatrijs Penn  47:40 If he has judges with integrity.   Will Dove  47:44 Sorry, I said, Steven, it's Michael, Michael Alexander.   Beatrijs Penn  47:46 I know, I understand. So, we had till November to close the whole thing again, and get our papers ready, because getting your papers ready is not only to write them, but everything that was personal, I went to a notary, to have it filed with my hand on the wrist, my oath on the Bible, that I was speaking the truth. So every paper that the judge has got from me in the first before 4th of May, and after the 4th of May, they got it notary verified, because nothing before that had been verified, had been investigated, nothing. Even my client was not hurt.   Beatrijs Penn  48:37 So, we also had affidavits of my clients, the two clients that I had, they were in favor of me. And one that I expected was the one of that piece of the recording. This is only the package for page 144 for 4th of May, but this is the package for 20th of November. So, everything is notary verified, everything is documented. And they can't refuse that.   Will Dove  49:16 So, now once again, I just want to establish a timeline. There was 2021 when you filed your request for appeal. There was May of 2023, before you got your first appearance, before the court, they allowed you to give testimony for 45 minutes. How long were you in the courtroom total that day?   Beatrijs Penn  49:32 I think more than that. Because there are breaks and things, so, I think that's two hours or so.   Will Dove  49:43 Okay. And then they told you that they wanted you to put together more evidence to do it in a proper way.   Beatrijs Penn  49:49 Yeah, because I had found the motive, I thought.   Will Dove  49:53 Okay, and so in November when you went back, how long were you in the court that time and how long did you speak?   Beatrijs Penn  49:58 That was much longer because then also the other party they've got their say. And what was very interesting to see is that I told them the motive. And do you want to hear about the motive or not?   Will Dove  50:17 Yes. Yes, I do, please.   Beatrijs Penn  50:22 I've all found that by going through the FOIP Act, and because I didn't know they were conspiring behind my back, so I found papers about that and made it very clear. So all of that is in that second package of evidence with notary, validated, that I tell the truth, and that this email was exactly found there and there and etc. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of money. And then I had found two weeks before we went to court in the 4th of May, a piece of paper where I had asked for help of one of the St. Stephen's College people or professors.   Beatrijs Penn  51:17 And I said, is this correct? I had a client, who I had a very deep session, that was his second session, it's not the one on the recording, but it was second client, a very deep session, and that I know how she has been deceived to take medication. I can't go into details if you don't mind.   Will Dove  51:45 Of course not.   Beatrijs Penn  51:46 And if she gets more strong, and understands that she's been deceived by her hospital, by professionals, and by my supervisor, who she was a client of five years, deceived to take medication, and that probably every professional that has counseled her and kept her on medication, she can sue them. And my supervisor, had been counseling her for five years. So I think that didn't sit well for my supervisor.   Beatrijs Penn  52:44 I know that during the session, when she read that, she jumped out of her chair, she went to me and raise her hand right in front of me, did you say that to her? She yelled. And I said, no. I put it on the reflections of this case, I wrote it in the reflections. She's not there yet. But if she can go on like this as we are working - at that moment, I was so happy for the client, and I didn't realize the complications with my supervisor.   Beatrijs Penn  53:24 So, I documented that all. This notary verified, under oath things, I had $900 for notary. And she gave me again, 45 minutes to tell what I thought that the scam was in plan. And what we also had done, and it's very important for every person who goes through it, everything that is said about you, whether it's an opinion or a judgment, you have to verify whether that is true or not. So for instance, they made me appear like a disobedient student who only does what she wants herself. And she's unmanageable for the supervisor, you know.   Beatrijs Penn  54:23 And so one of the things was, they have been accusing me of that I didn't do my due diligence for my psychotherapy. That was one thing. I did, but they didn't look in their files. I had filed it in me after when I was expelled, and they didn't put it into records of St. Stephen's till, I don't know, October or something. And in the meanwhile, it must have been on a big pile and they must have been very busy, then of course, there's no intention. Of course not. It's all circumstances. But I had done it.   Beatrijs Penn  55:16 So, I gave also my signed papers that I had done my psychotherapy, or things I - she should have referred. And they meant that I should have referred to a psychiatrist for medication, which you can refer to any acknowledged. I have referred this client of whom to network spinal analysis. She had been traumatized so much. And I knew that that professional could get her out of the trauma response. You can't take medication for that. We can also reset your nervous system, or I had mentioned St. John's wort, and I should never have done that, because it's a medication. It's available over the counter. It's approved, but they're making all that up. So you have to prove that it is available from Health Canada, that it's approved, it has a number, etc, etc. All those things under oath, under oath, under oath, on the Bible.   Will Dove  56:44 Which they did not do.   Beatrijs Penn  56:46 Say again?   Will Dove  56:48 Which they did not do. The St. Stephen's lawyers did not do that. They did not provide...   Beatrijs Penn  56:52 They did do not do any investigation. They only stick to their opinions. She's a nuisance, out.   Will Dove  56:59 Yes, and the reason why I wanted you to tell all of this, Beatrijs, is as you were well aware, from 2020 to 2022, tens of thousands of Canadians were dismissed from their jobs, for refusing to take an experimental injection. In most cases, they were dismissed for unprofessional conduct. But from what you've just told, and I'm no lawyer, folks, so this is just me thinking out loud here. Don't take this to court with you. Go talk to a lawyer first or get a professional opinion. But what occurs to me is that they've been dismissed on the basis of unprofessional conduct. But there's nothing in the company codes to say that refusing to take an experimental injection is unprofessional conduct. And so therefore, this is just hearsay. This is just an accusation against your character. It's nothing that they can prove. That seems to me that that would be a procedural omission.   Beatrijs Penn  57:57 Yeah, I think so too, has happened to me then about antidepressants.   Will Dove  58:02 Yes. Now, I also want people to be realistic. You spent four years with a lawyer, $70,000, you've lost. And then it took you four and a half years on your own. And thousands of dollars still in your pocket, not for a lawyer, but for all the work that you had to do, hundreds and hundreds of hours of research you had to do, and you had to get three judges who were just judges, who were willing to hear your case. But you still won in the end. They ruled in your favor.   Beatrijs Penn  58:34 And I've won because they had obscured the evidence that they used against me. And that was those snippets of 10 minutes on that recording that they were not willing to show me and talk about.   Will Dove  58:50 Right. So they made an accusation which they did not back up with evidence, even though they had the evidence. And this is a procedural failure. On that basis, the judges ruled in your favor.   Beatrijs Penn  59:00 They said in that things, this was a serious procedure. I don't know, they use the word, a serious breach of procedural fairness. A serious breach of procedural fairness.   Will Dove  59:17 So, what was the judgment that came out? They'd ruled in your favor, what have the judges decided?   Beatrijs Penn  59:25 It's incredible, they quashed everything. They quashed the decision of Justice Sulyma. They quashed the decision of the set of appeal panel of the St. Stephen's College. And they quashed the Dean's decision from 2015. And you could really feel that they were appalled that this could have been solved in June 2015 and had to go to court. You could really feel it.   Will Dove  1:00:00 What benefits of coming to this for you? Have you been reinstated to the College? Have you been rewarded in the kind of, damages?   Beatrijs Penn  1:00:06 After this nine years that I have been screwed by the College, I don't want to go back.   Will Dove  1:00:13 I understand that. But on the basis of what the judges decided, if you wanted to go back, they would have to let you at this point, will they not?   Beatrijs Penn  1:00:20 They would. And they would have to go through a next hearing to hear all the evidence of my supervisor, of this, and that, and so, so, so.   Will Dove  1:00:31 The only reason that that's not going to happen, because you don't want to go back.   Beatrijs Penn  1:00:36 I don't want to go back and they don't want me back. They both were clear.   Will Dove  1:00:40 Now, have you been awarded of the damage?   Beatrijs Penn  1:00:43 The lawyer of the other side, been raising their hand in the air and they were saying, "This has to stop! This has to stop!" meaning, "Stop her! Stop her!"   Will Dove  1:00:57 Now, where you awarded any damages or court cost?   Beatrijs Penn  1:01:01 Of course, I am. Yes. And after this, St. Stephen's College cannot take their loss, because they were trying to pin me on perjury.   Will Dove  1:01:14 Now, I have two last questions for you, Beatrijs.   Beatrijs Penn  1:01:16 Yes, go ahead.   Will Dove  1:01:18 First, as I said, What I'm hoping is going to come into this interview, is there's going to be at least some people out there who have been wrongfully dismissed from their jobs, who are going to take what you've told them, a very realistic picture of what's required, this is not something that's going to happen in a few months, it's gonna take a great deal of time and work, but it's doable, that if you do not have the money for a lawyer, you can present yourself in court and possibly win on the basis of procedure. Folks, I'd recommend that's what you focus on, focus on procedure, because that's what Michael Alexander is doing as well. So, now that you've been through this whole process...   Beatrijs Penn  1:01:51 There's something else. There's something else. Of course, I want to get that my costs of this whole procedure, but I have other aims. But for the community, I will go through every institution that said, we cannot help you. And I will present my case and say, you can. Students can. If they do the work that I did. Because I understand that students, I had rigged, I had build up savings. Students don't have that. Students can if they do the work. And for you, if in Alberta, the legislation should say, so, it could work, but how they can defend ourselves is a big book. Yeah. For St. Stephen's College, it was one paragraph in their cannon.   Will Dove  1:03:05 So now, I want to ask, having been through this process, nine years, it's taken you to get this victory. What advice would you have for people watching this interview? Who may wish to represent themselves in court?   Beatrijs Penn  1:03:17 As I'd say, you have to really feel strong about what the injustice is that is being done to you. And that you can really bring that with evidence and go through the motions of getting that all together. And say this, say this, but they do that, they say this, and do that. I wanted also to maybe say call me but that's maybe not a good word to say because I will be over overwhelmed, but there would be cases that I would be willing to help.   Will Dove  1:03:58 Alright. My last question, and it's off topic. But I think it's important because you spent 25 years as a psychotherapist in Holland. And then you went through St. Stephen's here, and one of the comments you made to me while we were setting up this interview, was you noticed a profound difference between psychotherapy there and counseling here. Please explain what you've seen and what those differences are.   Beatrijs Penn  1:04:27 In my education in Holland, I have spent after my master's degree, more than four years with supervisors and in a course that was going through reading all kinds of the different psychotherapy, things that there are. Directions that you can take, like crystal therapy, behavioral therapy. Behavioral therapy for me is training a dog. Humans are not a dog. So I don't do that. I want to really connect with people from the heart, and really have them go through the trauma, which is sometimes very hard.   Beatrijs Penn  1:05:20 And here they don't do that, they avoid feelings, they avoid emotions, and they just talk fluffy about, oh, that stuff. But clients for me could see in my eyes, that I had tears in my eyes in what they told me, and that's why they trusted me. Because they said, we can see it in your face, we can hear in your voice, how it affects you. And it doesn't mean I take it with me, home, but they are human beings. They've gone through horrible things. And they're mostly put on medication, because the psychotherapist is not strong enough in her heart and core to choose to coach them through this. Be with them until the wave gets over. And it is a natural process.   Beatrijs Penn  1:06:20 And yeah, I think counseling is not psychotherapy, it's just soothing everything down. But I was told in a community counseling center, that most people only cave at the most cave five times and with me they can 20 or 30 times going and they said we've never seen this. Yeah, but I am educated in long-term psychotherapy, not in revolving doors.   Will Dove  1:06:52 So, would you say that the difference is you were trained to help the patient address the root of the problem. And this hustling that they're doing in this country is putting a bandaid on it?   Beatrijs Penn  1:07:04 That's right, yeah.   Will Dove  1:07:07 Now, I lied. I have one more question for you. I forgot. This is important. Obviously, you never finished that master's degree at St. Stephen's. So, I can't imagine that for the last nine years you were working as a psychotherapist. So, how have you been supporting yourself?   Beatrijs Penn  1:07:28 I had a pension build up from my work in Holland. But I have exhausted my savings. And I have to be very frugal in what I get monthly from Holland, to go through the costs here and to move on and not let go.   Will Dove  1:07:55 Beatrijs, I want to thank you for your courage in doing this. I think you've given hope to a lot of people. I really hope you have. Because there's so many people in this country who have been absolutely cheated out of their profession, out of their jobs, things that they worked hard for, on grounds that had no substantiation, whatsoever. And I truly hope we're gonna see a bunch of those people who couldn't afford a lawyer are going to take this interview, and they're gonna go and present themselves in court on the basis of correctness of procedure. Hopefully.   Beatrijs Penn  1:08:32 With documents that they're under oath, because that is the difference between having an opinion or a judgment about somebody and getting the judge on your side.   Will Dove  1:08:49 Yes. Of coarse-like documents that can be proven. So they like it in writing, they could have it in black and white and they like, can prove it.   Beatrijs Penn  1:08:58 That's different.   Will Dove  1:08:59 They'll talk hearsay every time in a coarse you do.   Beatrijs Penn  1:09:03 Then the lawyer of the other party only had one thing, and he said, "Yes. But she said that her parents had been in the prisoner for crimes of Indonesia." As if that is a sin that judges decide upon. That was all, that was left over. There is something that to be discussed with a good supervisor. Why did she say that? How did you say it? What was happening? Yeah, it was out of the blue but my client had a father, who was a veteran and had been in Afghanistan. The man was deeply traumatized. It was not out of the blue.