Will Dove  00:00 In George Orwell's novel 1984, the populace was largely controlled by the Ministry of Truth, which through absolute control of the media information and education, was able to convince the people to blindly accept the government's narrative. While Orwell's novel was inspired by Stalin's Soviet Union, the irony of the book is that this kind of control has been growing in all countries around the world since before he began writing the book in the late 1940s.   Will Dove  00:31 In fact, throughout history, the powerful have sought to control the message, because they understood that the easiest way to control people was to have their willing cooperation in their own subjugation. And this could be accomplished if they could control what people believed.   Will Dove  00:51 In May of last year, I first interviewed Judith Brown, a retired nurse from the UK, who about two years ago began using her considerable research skills to unmask the so-called Fact Checkers, to reveal who they really worked for, and what their role is in controlling the message.   Will Dove  01:09 Since then, Judith has launched her own substack and has expanded her research into the entire information control and propaganda structure, not just in the UK, but around the world.   Will Dove  01:23 In this interview, Judith reveals the interconnected web of the globalists Ministry of Truth, or their complete control over the narrative, not just what people hear, but what they can say, and even what they're allowed to think.   Will Dove  01:46 Judith, thank you so much for coming back on the show today.   Judith Brown  01:50 Thank you very much for inviting me, Will, it's a pleasure to be here.   Will Dove  01:54 And I was so pleased when I found very recently, you had started your own substack. For my viewers who missed that in my introduction, I have interviewed you in the past about a year ago, we talked about Fact Checker, which is something you spent a lot of time working on. But now you've got your own substack, you're talking of sort of broader range of things in that you're getting into the controlled media as well. And of course, the fact checker is a part of that, we'll get into that later. But very recently you put out this excellent article on conspiracy theory. And in the context of the way the media is controlled. So, I just like to invite you to talk about that article and the conclusions you came to.   Judith Brown  02:30 Well, I suppose I started feeling motivated because I just started thinking, well, what is a conspiracy theory? And why are people so against conspiracy theorists? And then I sort of thought, well, actually, I have a conspiracy theory, because I do believe that there are groups of powerful and wealthy people, people like the Bilderbergers, people like the World Economic Forum, governments, the CEO's of big corporations and banks, and they do get together and they do sort of plan our wealth for us, irrespective of what we vote for in elections; they tend to do what they want to do.   Judith Brown  03:16 And so I started to think, well, really, we should start thinking of the world conspiracy theory in a different way and thinking yes, we do think there are conspiracies. And I actually found a quote from someone at an American university who said that he was a conspiracy theorist because he believes that the wealthy conspire, and went on to say, if you don't think that the wealthy conspire, I call you an idiot, and I sort of thought it was a bit amusing, but I sort of thought there's a lot in that.   Judith Brown  03:50 So, I sort of found someone who was thinking along the same lines as me.   Will Dove  03:56 Coincidentally, that quote was from 2019. Just most of us started to realize, yes, he's right. And I like what you're talking about with conspiracy theory, because it all comes to how you want to use that word conspire. If you're using it in a paranoid sense, it is not true. Well, of course, it's a theory. It's a crackpot thing. But if you use the word conspire in the sense that you just did, that yes, all of these powerful people do get together, and they do conspire. Then, probably speaking, that is a conspiracy, therefore, conspiracy theory, because we're trying to understand what it is they're doing.   Judith Brown  04:27 Exactly, and when you look at both fact-checks, there's have been doing more work on media literacy recently. You can see that people constantly talk about conspiracy theories. And they also conflate different ideas like for example, Flat Earthers, as with people who are suspicious about the effects of the COVID vaccination or people who think that all of the people like the royal family have died some time ago and rubies lizards that impersonate them. Then they associate that with people who are critical of some of the, for example, narrative on the climate.   Judith Brown  05:07 So, they sort of like conflate these sorts of like very bizarre theories, with sorts of like, really genuine questions that people have. In one book that I read on, which was talking about conspiracy theories. They linked a young man who killed his brother, and thinking that he was a lizard with conspiracy theories, although the book also said he was diagnosed with a mental illness. Well, if he was diagnosed with a mental illness, it wasn't a conspiracy theory that caused it, it was the mental illness and so therefore, he was found not guilty of murdering his brother.   Judith Brown  05:45 So, I think that looking at a lot of these books on conspiracy theories, they always assume that the people who are saying narratives that oppose official narratives are in fact, or doing it for nefarious reasons, for attention, in order to make money through clickbait, and that the real sort of agenda that people should follow is the official narrative. They don't take into account of course, how official narratives have been wrong so often.   Judith Brown  06:27 And we all know that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, for example. We know that what Hitler was saying before in the 1930s was it wasn't a logical theory. And yet those events cause wars, which killed lots of people and these were from governments, because there are other things relating to health such as the thalidomide issue.   Judith Brown  06:56 The thalidomide issue, doctors and medical professionals were advising people to take a particular drug thalidomide, and that resulted in a lot of harm to children the same way in the COVID pandemic. Since the pandemic and the lockdown, people have shown that the lockdowns and the non-pharmaceutical interventions caused actually quite a lot of harm. They caused social harms, psychological harm, emotional harm, educational harm, they caused a lot of harms. And then when people evaluate the the effects of non-pharmaceutical interventions, what they find was the effect of that was negligible.   Judith Brown  07:39 So therefore, the harms seem to outweigh the benefits. Now, government has ever produced the cost-benefit analysis to show otherwise. And so what I'm saying is, you can't believe what official bodies say, you can't believe what governments say, and you can't believe what professionals such as medical personnel say. And really, all of us should be able to investigate those and not be smeared by people are saying, that we're behaving nefariously, or foolishly or gullible. They should be taking these sorts of like queries that people have seriously.   Judith Brown  08:24 I also think, these sorts of rumors, Will, they've been around for generations, for millennia. If there were, for example, people think that Caesar was murdered because of false rumors that was spreading. And that caused people to murder him. So, you know, you're talking 2000 years, people have lived with these rumors. Certainly, when I was young, there were various old wives tales, which people believed and yet it didn't really do us any harm.   Judith Brown  09:05 And so I think that there is a place for maybe training people to not accept facts, but to look critically at those facts. But the difficulty these days as well, there's so much smearing of people, probably like you or I or even more senior people, parliamentarians, top epidemiologists, so that if people see an article by, for example, Martin Kulldorff. If they look, although he was a top epidemiologist at a top university in America, at Harvard, I think, therefore he made comments on a different way of dealing with the COVID pandemic. But he was mad and if you look on websites now about Martin Kulldorff, if he made any statements, it would say that he was a conspiracy theorist or that he promoted vaccine hesitancy or whatever.   Will Dove  10:12 They went after Martin Kulldorff because he was the co-author of the Great Barrington Declaration.   Judith Brown  10:16 The Great Barrington Declaration, right, yeah which obviously was they didn't want people to adopt that policy, and they didn't want governments to adopt it. I think that the only person who did adopt it was DeSantis of Florida. I don't know of any others. But obviously, the World Council for Health, which you know, you and I both know, and if you look at Wikipedia, it makes a sort of very derogatory statements about the World Council for Health. And unfortunately, now, the situation is that if you go on to Wikipedia, you can't correct any false information about yourself or about your organization. Although Wikipedia is says that it's an open source, but you can't add citations and alter negative stories. So I think that's both fact checkers, and which I want to talk to you about later, media Literacy trainers, they actually talk about up sourcing and lateral reading. And by that bilateral reading may mean if this all off as one article, and you think that it's quite good. We've used the example of Martin Kulldorff, for example. So if you read an article by him or sort of tweet by him, and you want to check him out, and you looked on - did an internet search, what you'd find what makes you think that he wasn't the person worth following. All the same with the World Council for Health. And on the same with them looking at source again, if you look at the sources, again, if the source isn't one that the government approves, they've already smeared those sources. So you can't find any, if you do outsourcing and lateral reading, you won't find confirmation that this is a good site. Also, they have a tendency to say that alternative new sites may look really good, but actually they're there to fool you. So, this takes away sort of the credibility, say journalists like yourself or UK column, for example, in UK that look like credible news sources, but they're sort of like they're distracting people from looking for their information on...   Will Dove  12:44 If you look me up online, I'm a white supremacist and a far-right extremist. But I wanted to comment on some things you were just saying, because I think it really pulls things together. And it provides people with a practical guide in a way for almost assessing who they shouldn't be listening to or at least determine that that's a possible source of good information, because you were talking about the fact that they won't -- when we come up with these "conspiracy theories", mainstream news or information sources, they won't respond to the argument. What they do is they turn around slander the person's character, as you were saying they would conflate something, like people who believe in wizard people with those who question the COVID vaccines, and they put those together.   Will Dove  13:27 And they're talking about Martin Kulldorff, co-authored, the Great Barrington Declaration, a very, very well soundly thought out scientific argument. Do they try to counter his argument? No, they just attack his character. And so it seems to me and I've been using this guideline myself now for quite some time, quite honestly, to determine the sorts of people I want to invite to interviews, to what degree are the mainstream sources, not just the news, but social media platforms? It's just almost what you see commenting from the comments that go on, because we know a lot of those are bots, AIs that are out there to intentionally go after those people, to what degree has that person's character, not their theories, not their information, their character, but attacked, and when I find someone whose character has been attacked to a great deal, but no responses to their arguments, that's probably somebody I want to talk to.   Judith Brown  14:23 Yeah, I think that's a good rule of thumb, because it gives them an opportunity to speak to audiences, which of course is why I'm so pleased to be speaking to you today. I started my substack. I've also got some articles published done on Pandora recently, so I was starting to build up people that isn't that interested and it's a shame for them, either reading about it or spoken to a few people who are also doing sort of bits of research as well. So it's helping to network amongst people who are taking research into censorship. So yes, it's really useful and maybe from the interview with you today, I'll be able to network a bit further with people who've got similar interests.   Will Dove  15:14 I'm sure it will, and of course throughout this interview we'll be displaying your substack address on the screen several times, we'll also be providing a link underneath this interview directly to it. And folks, it is very much worth your time, even though Judith has only printed at this point in time a handful of articles, they're extremely good articles.   Will Dove  15:30 So, I want to continue on now, Judith, because we know we started out with this. Excellent, I think very clear thinking on what conspiracy theory is, what it shouldn't be, rather than what it's labeled as. But now you've got a series of articles on there, which when I looked at them, and so good, they're about how the media itself was controlled, such things as read how everybody's got the same slant on stories. That and the fact checkers and how they tie into that. And all of this had been sort of in the back of my mind, but it didn't really gel as a mature concept. Until I read those articles and realized, we're looking at the Ministry of Truth, from 1984. It's a huge structure to control not just information, but the conclusions that people will draw from that information. So I'm gonna let you run with that.   Judith Brown  16:23 Well, I think the articles relating to the mainstream media talking about how the same stories keep appearing. I don't think - as I spoke to you last time about, for example, the way that news wires are being coordinated, certainly they are in Europe, I haven't sort of read so much about different parts of the world. But Europe, in fact, just trying to think of it, Mike Binns, and listen to him on an interview that he did, and he was talking about how close NATO is to the European Union. And of course, a lot of the things that can't be introduced in USA, because of the First Amendment can be introduced in Europe.   Judith Brown  17:07 And so therefore, there's been a whole range of censorship activities in Europe. And one of those is the creation of content, and paid for by the EU. There's a group in Europe that gets together, they're all the news wires in Europe. And instead of them competing for stories, as of course, to get scopes used to be the aim of organizations, so they didn't share with other organizations, they were hoping that their news wire would clinch the story.   Judith Brown  17:41 But instead of that, now, this has been funded by EU and they're collaborating on story creation, so that they all follow exactly the same story. They use organizations that create graphics, videos, they're all linked into this European paid hub. So, that then the same stories go out to not only in Europe, but in different parts of the world in multiple languages. And then it's ready sort of like provided copies so that newspapers, obviously news wires sell their wares to all sorts of broadcasting media and and print media. And so the same stories are going out to all of them from the news wires. So that's one way of coordinating apart from their links with the fact check industry.   Will Dove  18:32 Can I drop in with a question, Judith, before we go. I'd like to know, do you know to what degree these various news organizations are financed by the European governments? And the reason why I asked that question, here in Canada, the big three broadcasters are heavily financed by the government to the extent where the CBC the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, which of course was originally an offshoot of the BBC, received so much funding from our government that Elon Musk a few months ago labeled it on Twitter which is now X as state-sponsored media.   Judith Brown  19:04 Yes, it is, indeed. And I think that the EU is funding a lot of news wires, as well as funding fact check groups, media literacy groups, there's enormous funding from the EU. And certainly, we've got a branch of NATO in Europe called STRATCOM. And there are obvious links between the EU and STRATCOM, you can see there's this joint things going on between the two of them. And I think I also read an article that actually said that because the First Amendment couldn't apply in Europe, they've obviously had people like Musk have had to agree at the moment. He is challenging in some parts of the world. But at the moment, he's had to agree to restrictions on Twitter, on X, in Europe, and that means that in effect, he's also censoring in other parts of the world as well to meet with Digital Services Act, the European censorship Act. And if he doesn't do that, he's going to have to pay 6% of these topical turnover internationally to the European Union. So obviously, those sanctions are so big that he's applying with them, because he's applying with them in Europe, it makes him very difficult to have different form of censorship, for example, in America and other parts of the world. So in effect, it's meaning that he's having to censor in the same way worldwide as is required by the Digital Services Act in Europe. And actually, I did some research before I started doing fact checking onlines and services online, with Acts, they're meant to be providing security and safety. But they're called different things in different parts of the world. And it was quite difficult to find them. But I think I found about 50 countries of the past sort of online legislation similar to the Digital Services Act in Europe. And even it's sort of USA with its first amendment, it's actually got some things put into some legislation that gives the government the opportunity to censor. I mean, obviously, I couldn't find all countries because these online security act censorship, are called different things in different countries, and also people using different languages. So, these are sort of like, pretty ubiquitous, they're appearing in all countries in the world. But it's the one in Europe, which has got such big penalties that's actually causing social media companies to have to comply. And I think that then talking about the Digital Services Act is gonna take about two years to bend down. So we don't know how that's going to go in the long-term. But Musk is doing his bit. I'm not 100% convinced unless but I think that he does believe in free speech. So for example, he's got a standoff with the Brazilian government at the moment. I read today that some doctor in Canada, which would be interesting to you, and to publish Twitter posts in the pandemic, sorts of like criticizing, facts. And he's actually taken on her case, and he's paid fines of $300,000. And he's fighting her case. So I think Musk is doing his bit, but he's still having to comply when the penalty is so large, and it's having a worldwide impact. So there's that. But actually, apart from the conspiracy theories, I've also been working on media literacy recently. I don't know whether you read my post on media literacy.   Will Dove  23:10 I did and I like you to explain to our viewers what you mean by that because it doesn't mean what people might think it means.   Judith Brown  23:17 No, exactly. I mean, in theory, I think that media literacy training could be an excellent thing, teaching people how to look at post critically, how not to accept things at face value, and to sort of do some research themselves on things. And obviously, to prevent online fraud to the children who are very vulnerable on the internet, sort of like bullying and grooming and things like that. And so therefore, these sorts of like issues, people should be trained in it. I've not gotten an objection to training in media literacy.   Judith Brown  23:55 But I think, now looking at the growth of it, I think by 2024, I think it's actually bigger than the fact check industry and it's really below the radar. A lot of people don't know about it. But instead, it's actually persuading people that they need to follow government narratives and training people so that they only accept those narratives and they reject anything other than those narratives. So people are -- and debate is restricted  within a very narrow Overton window and any debate outside that isn't allowed.   Will Dove  24:39 If I can interject, so it seems to be, not just from reading your own article on it, but reading some others as well. You and I would say well, media literacy properly practice would mean go and find opposing viewpoints. And try to find multiple ones. Don't just rely on one source. Try to find multiple thing, compare what they're saying, and then think about what makes sense, but the way they're teaching media literacy is, go and find other viewpoints, viewpoints that support the official narrative.   Judith Brown  25:06 Yes, exactly.   Will Dove  25:07 And don't pay any attention to ones that contradict that narrative.   Judith Brown  25:11 Yes, that exactly. Yeah. So for example, if there's one website that compares stories in mainstream media and saying, well, this one's saying this, and this one's saying that, this one's saying something else. For example, I read one story, which was saying that the deaths in Gaza were underestimated. And other that said they're about right. And another that said, they're overestimated, but they were all in mainstream media. And then it was asking people which they think would be the most plausible one.   Judith Brown  25:47 But of course, what they're not doing is saying, look, compare this COVID story on an alternative in the news site, like, for example, Consortium News with the COVID story on mainstream media. They're not actually asking people to do a wide comparison. And of course, they're not warning people about smearing. For example, I've done quite a few media literacy calls in the last few months, so I shouldn't be really brainwashed into sort of thinking - but they say that, they emphasize that mainstream news is really well fact-checked. And therefore the mainstream news is really likely to be completely accurate. That's a sort of like a very prevalent story on fact check groups.   Will Dove  26:50 Yes, thank you. I was gonna bring that up myself, because especially here in Canada, the government's pretty much openly talking about this in their own media literacy doublespeak that only mainstream media news sources, and but even labeled trusted media. And only rely on the mainstream media sources. But as you've already pointed out, as most of my viewers know, they're all controlled and funded by the same people, and largely by governments. You're gonna get the same story with minor variations from all of that.   Judith Brown  27:22 Looking at media literacy, when you look at the actual media literacy training groups, they tend to be paid for by governments. But when sort of media literacy groups go out, so the actual fundamental sort of structure of media literacy training tends to be government supported in different parts of the world as far as I can see. But then when people actually are doing the media literacy training, that's quite often paid for by the usual suspects, Google, Microsoft, matter and so forth.   Judith Brown  28:01 So, they are actually paying people to go and offer the courses. And the courses are offered in person. And they're particularly aimed for students, young people, but they're also offered online. There's just so many different ways of training. I mean, in my article, I've listed a few ways such as the sniffed in the crap, maybe that's quite well-named, but different sorts of systems media analyzer. And then there's this from Cambridge, social, I can't remember, Social Decision-Making Lab, maybe it was something like that, I can't remember, I might have that wrong, which is in Cambridge and headed by Sander van der Linden.   Judith Brown  28:53 When you look at it, they're funded by the American government, the British government and Google, metta, big foundation. So they're funded by all the usual people. But they've been very influential in media literacy training. And they in particular, been very innovative and organized sorts of games. There's one called bad news. I've done that one a few times. And all of the conspiracy theorists are people who've got sort of like, just sort of evil people who sort of like, set out to deceive others. And the person who takes the course adopts the persona of this evil person.   Judith Brown  29:40 And then they set out to attract people to believe their stories, and then they persuade them to give sorts of like to use different techniques such as demeaning people and making extravagant straight statements and so on to attract more followers. And what they found is that when young people do this course, because they then think that people are set as who are sending out information narratives that different to the government, they think of them all as being like this evil person in the bad news game.   Judith Brown  30:19 And so therefore, they sort of like they feel suspicious. So, that's what the CSDL is talking about in this part of Cambridge University, what they're talking about is inoculating people. So they're talking about conspiracy theories as viruses, and then they're inoculating people by this course against viruses. And they have found that when they go back to people, sometimes they've gone back, there may be looking at more information outside the narrow Overton window, but then they're sort of suggesting that they offer booster courses to them so that they sort of once again, sort of brainwashing, but that's what it is, isn't it? It's a form of brainwashing. I don't see what else you can talk.   Will Dove  31:06 I'd like to give my own example, Judith, because the things that you were talking about. But here's a tactic that they use a lot. They start with a statement that everyone knows to be true, unquestionably true. And then they draw from that a conclusion that sounds like it should be true. But is it? And this follow this one here, because they do this. This is how they do the global warming argument. They start with CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Yes, it is. We all learned that in school, that is absolutely true.   Will Dove  31:33 But then here comes the lock. Therefore, if we increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere will lead to a runaway greenhouse effect that's going to kill us all. It doesn't work that way. That's completely false. But if you don't know the science, you're going to buy that. Now, what have they got? They've raised in this person's mind, this foundation of a truth. A truth, which no one even knew, even you and I. CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Yes, it is. Now that they've got that foundation, everything that gets built off of that, to them seems completely rational. And if you deny it, you're a conspiracy theorist. But they take it one step further, as you were pointing out very early on in the interview.   Will Dove  32:10 Okay. So now, if you've bought it to the manmade global warming narrative, and somebody else is denying that narrative. Well, now what they'll do was to say, well, if they deny global warming, they're probably Flat Earthers, too.   Judith Brown  32:24 Yes, exactly.   Will Dove  32:25 Building on that one tiny little bit of fact. They have drawn these incorrect conclusions to completely mislead people. And then as you say, they get into the media literacy training, which says, shut up your brain, don't listen to anything that isn't the trusted media sources that is mainstream media funded by governments, funded by globalist corporations. And they've convinced people to take whatever they're fed, and don't ever question it, but they make the appearance are questioning it. Because different sources, different sources are all coming from the same place.   Judith Brown  32:59 Exactly. And in terms of media literacy, so when you read the introduction to media literacy organizations, they all talk about protection of people from scams and grooming and such things. And you sort of read that, and you think, yeah, that's great. Of course it is. I'm not saying that it isn't, but the way that they go about what they're doing, it may be, it might protect people from scams, but  it will from massive financial fraud, for example. So there may be some benefits to it in that way.   Judith Brown  33:36 But they're also - if you like, making people more vulnerable to government manipulation, I mean, the same as was written in Laura Dodsworth books, "A state of Fear", where they were talking about the psychological warfare on the British people during the COVID pandemic. They're doing this same thing all the time in persuading people that the only safe way - everything in the world is fearful.   Judith Brown  34:05 And in fact, I don't know whether you read a bit, there was a report that was commissioned by the government in I think 2021, on media literacy. And it was talking about the issues that media literacy had to tackle. It was a big list day, maybe about 20 items. And some of those were things that you would really agree with, like grooming of children, bullying, and so forth. But then they had things on there, like potentially harmful information and things that were sort of like much more contentious and though impact I think no more of those on the list than things that you could definitely agree with.   Judith Brown  34:47 But just as you were saying earlier, if you read the list and use the grooming bullying and fraud and so forth on the list, you think oh, yeah, that's good. And then what maybe then, lower down the list where it talks about issues that, like, unpleasant comments or something, you then start thinking, why is that included in the list? And I just think that human beings, you are different to me and every human being is unique, what I might see as true, you might not see as true. But what I've learned is for me to be able to read what I want to read. And then for me to sort of evaluate that for myself and come up with my own conclusions, which might be different to the conclusions that you come to.   Will Dove  35:38 And not only that, but to be able to then express those opinions openly. You were just talking about the Online Harms Act. They're here in Canada, Bill C-63 is passed into law last year, our Online Harms Act and just like you were talking about, a lot of it is about preventing child pornography online and anything like that. They've been buried in there. There's two just unbelievably draconian clauses.   Will Dove  36:02 Number one, that people can file an anonymous complaint against you. You said something that they didn't like that, they thought was hate speech, and they don't have to reveal who they are. So, now you can be acused. And that of course, in most countries, we have a constitutional legal right to face our accuser. It removes that, even scarier. For people who remember the Tom Cruise movie, Minority Report, where they were going out there, they were basically arresting or stopping people before they committed a crime. In this Act, there's a clause in there that says that a person can file a complaint against you if they believe that you're about to commit a contravention of the Act. And you can be subjected to house arrest.   Judith Brown  36:49 Yes. Yeah, exactly. And I think that similar things to that have been said in a new policing Bill in UK where they're talking about people going on demonstrations, and they're saying, if they think that you're going to a demonstration, they can arrest you. And, of course, the the Bill that was passed in Scotland, recently, about a month ago, I think, hate speech law. I think that in the first week, they had 8000 cases of hate speech filed which the police, it's more than the police complaints from the police normally happening now. It's doubled the caseload for the police.   Judith Brown  37:32 And in fact, I think that probably some of those where people are sort of like doing it in order to purposefully increase the police workload. I mean, yeah, I could think of things that people have said that I disagree with this, I might think as I hate law recently, you know, people on WhatsApp, I mean, for example, I have worked with Palestinians. And I feel a lot of sympathy for what's going on in Gaza now, but some people are sort of have been saying quite different things locally, and in the area, in the village where I live.   Judith Brown  38:15 And so I could sort of put those forward as hate speech, that they've been saying hate speech, and I could report that to the police, because that might be something that's happening in Scotland. But if I did that anonymously as well, I mean, it's just got to a ridiculous point, isn't it?   Will Dove  38:36 It has been pointed out, what you're talking about. This is entirely rational, because what you're saying is, I've heard this person talking about, say, inciting violence that they're planning to commit an act of violence. Okay. We already have laws in both your country and ours, or them, it's illegal to incite a crime. Violence against another person is a crime. So we don't need these hate speech laws to prevent that.   Will Dove  39:01 What are the hate speech laws for? They're there to control what people can say. So that, because when you control people say, and then you get into everything we've been talking about with the media, and how this whole Ministry of Truth structure works. Now, they're trying to control what people can think, you take away certain words, words represent ideas, you can't use those words. Therefore, you can't think those ideas and now we've programmed into your head, what we want you to think, what we want you to believe.   Judith Brown  39:23 Yeah, well, I think that's particularly true, and I think that The Free Speech Union in UK has been very involved with people, like for example, people who work in their workplace and have expressed views on social media. For example, to say that they don't think a man can be a woman and it's a viewpoint. And if you hold that view, you should be able to express it freely, but then they're being sacked from their jobs.   Judith Brown  39:56 There's a girl who was a member of a football club and she'd been attending this football club for decades, she's been a member of it, the season ticket holder for decades. And suddenly out of the blue, she has this message to say that she can't attend any football matches for two years, I think, because on Twitter post, she thought that men couldn't be women, and which is absolutely ridiculous.   Judith Brown  40:26 But not only that, but she puts in sort of very quest to find how the football club had got this information. And she found that she'd been the football club had got people to sort of like follow her and spy on there. And thought about when she was out in her home and walk into the shops. And so she's actually been spied on, which is quite incredible. So I think...   Will Dove  40:54 It's intimidation tactics, it's not just applying social pressure or the potential for some kind of government penalty. But actual intimidation.   Judith Brown  41:04 Yes, indeed it is.   Will Dove  41:05 People feel like they're might be in danger, if they simply voice an opinion. That's counter to the narrative.   Judith Brown  41:11 Exactly. That's absolutely true. And so, yes, I think that we're maybe getting to the point now where it's so extreme that maybe even people that believe that everything that the government does this, that even if it isn't in your own interest, they think that it's in your own interest. So the government is acting with care and consideration towards its citizens. But I think the people know, or maybe it's going so far that people are starting to realize that maybe governments actually do act to harm their own citizens as well as citizens in other countries.   Judith Brown  41:53 And I think that once you've crossed that boundary, it's very difficult to go back. And in fact, in a book written by Sander van der Linden, he actually says that, that once people have started to be conspiracy theorists, it's very difficult to detract them from being conspiracy theorists, in his words, whatever he considers a conspiracy theorist to be. So, that's why he thinks that this pre-blinking system of media literacy training is working so well.   Judith Brown  42:27 But I mean, for example, we were meant to have left the European Union in UK, but what you find in the media literacy, and the fact checking groups now is that the groups that were used to be funded by the EU, it now says that it's funded by the EU, and somebody from Switzerland and somebody from UK, so we're still part of it. It's just that instead of being paid for by the EU, we're paying our own separate fees to sort of like belong to those groups.   Judith Brown  43:00 And the media literacy campaign in Europe, there's a European media net and information literacy group. And all the people who I think are together, there's something like about 40 to 50 countries that belong to it far more than are in the EU. But they have to sort of, to stay belonging to it, they have to go to a meeting once a year and report what they're doing on media literacy.   Judith Brown  43:27 So, I mean, I'm from UK. So, I was interested in reading what UK did. What I found was that off camera is the media regulator in the UK is actually in charge of the media literacy campaign in UK, which I didn't know until I went on to that website. And it said that they were in the midst of training a thousand new media literacy trainers and that they would start a media literacy training in February 2024. So, that's gone now. So expect those are being working in UK and training in media literacy.   Judith Brown  44:05 So, now that's just sort of UK but if you think there's this 40 to 50 countries that belong to MLA, I can't remember who they all are, it's listed on the site. If you imagine that they're also all training thousand media literacy trainers. That means that there's an awful lot of them now that that are working in UK and particularly focusing on schools. And if there is a media literacy, China comes to a head Mr. Xu doesn't know anything about media literacy, and says, oh, I can train your students for free in media literacy and this is why it's so important protecting children and so on so forth. The teacher doesn't know anything about media literacy is likely to accept the media literacy trainer and maybe because she's sees that person is an expert, then whatever that person says even the headmistress is going to think, yeah, that's right. You know, they're not brainwashing my children, but they're teaching them how to be safe online.   Judith Brown  45:14 So, you can see how people succumb to this information. Not sort of by pressure necessarily, but just by offering services, which for free, which they think would benefit their students, and therefore, they haven't got to fund it or are looking for...   Will Dove  45:36 And it sounds like they want to frame this as something that's going to be good for the children. And they do especially go after children. And you know this better than I do. And it comes back to what you were saying a few minutes ago about how they, yeah, there was a comment about when somebody becomes a conspiracy theorist, it's very difficult to get them to go back. But if we define conspiracy theorists, as you and I did very early on in this interview, there are a group of people who are conspiring, and we are theorizing on what they are conspiring about and what they plan to do with it. That is a different definition of conspiracy theory, a definition which says, people know the truth. And this bothers them a great deal, because one of the things that I've told people, and I'm not just a journalist, I'm also the founder of Strong and Free Canada, which is one of Canada's largest freedom organizations. And I've said to people, many times, the globalist are going to lose this war.   Will Dove  46:25 And just one of the reasons they're going to lose is because if you think of this two enemy camps, you've got the people who have been fooled by the globalist over here, and the people who know the truth over here, defections happen every day, we're only in one direction. People go from that, to this one, they come to understand the truth. And once you understand the truth, well, you're not gonna go back and will only believe something is not true. So, all of this media literacy, all of this stuff, especially that they're aiming at the children in the schools, is to program not to question. Because if you get them to stop question in the first place, we'll now never arrive over there, will they?   Judith Brown  47:02 Yeah, absolutely. I think that's exactly what they're doing. Yeah. And it's very difficult. I mean, even within my own family, even though people know that I've been researching this for a long time. There are certain people who sort of like think of crazy mother, you know, they...   Will Dove  47:21 Don't feel bad. My entire family thinks I'm a nutjob.   Judith Brown  47:24 Yes. Yeah, but I see this different form of truth, I just feel sort of that I have to keep on. And actually, I've got a lot of eyesight issues. And the other thing is as well that I feel that I need to be doing it and publishing it whilst I've got functioning sight. Because if I live long enough, one day, I won't have a functioning sight. And so, I just feel that I've got this incentive to do it. And that's partly why I'm publishing it now. So, that's all of the knowledge that I've gained over the last, I suppose now, it's 18 months getting on for two years, that I couldn't share it with other people.   Judith Brown  48:11 So, hopefully, then other people will be able to take that on and maybe do further research into it. I mean, for example, I think I've been doing research on a lot of fact checkers, a fact check trivia and they sort of, I looked at a lot of websites, and I bought a check. And you can do this. And you can see there's a lot of trivia on fact check platform sites and reports of their fact checks. So I looked at a lot of like the the biggest new story at the moment, which is the Israel-Palestine war, and looked at how AFP, which is the largest fact check platform in the world has done it.   Judith Brown  48:57 And that's sort of like found that they only fact check fringe issues relating to that. They don't fact check major issues. So and, of course, like, it doesn't prove anything, because what I've done is looked at some - done an eyeball check of some fact check groups, and looked at one story on one website. But I think that could be like, for example, another area of research, a valuable area of research. Because if you could find, if you could prove that fact check platforms only fact check trivia, then you really sort of like a saying, well, why are people paying this large amount of money for them to fact check trivia? So, I think it is a valuable, it would be a valuable way of investigating. So, I'm hoping that some people will take their research further than I have. And look at different things that they might want to research in the future.   Will Dove  49:54 Well, Judith, I have to say I think that your research is incredibly important. And let me explain why. It's not just because you're drawing back the curtain and you're exposing this entire Ministry of Truth industry so that people can understand how they're being deceived, how society is being programmed. But once they understand it, it allows them to engage in greater critical thinking. And as I want to give an example of that from something you were talking about 15 minutes ago, and you were talking about these programs to teach people to protect themselves against online fraud.   Will Dove  50:24 And I plugged that into this whole structure we've been talking about and immediately drew this conclusion, and some people might agree, some people might not, but here's what I would go with it. Alright, so now first of all we've done, what we're doing is through this public service, to teach people how to protect themselves against online fraud. So next is going to be a bunch of fear mongering stories in the media, about people who have been fleeced to online fraud. And then comes the bomb, that they'll drop. If we had CBDCs, that would be impossible.   Judith Brown  50:58 Yes.   Will Dove  51:00 There you go.   Judith Brown  51:02 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.   Will Dove  51:04 All the program people into being sheep to accept the globalist control agenda.   Judith Brown  51:09 Yes, exactly. Well, hopefully, well you and I aren't going to give up no matter how much we're censored. We're going to find ways of getting our message through. And I think there are other people who are equally as determined as we are. So hopefully, eventually, we will win. I'm certain that we will win. We might have to go through lots of trials and tribulations, but we will get there in the end.   Will Dove  51:36 I believe we will. And thank you very much to the excellent researcher people such as yourself, Judith.   Judith Brown  51:42 Thank you. Thank you for interviewing me, Will.