Will Dove  00:00 A co-creator of both the optical mouse and email, Steve Kirsch made a small fortune in tech. A philanthropist, at the start of the Covid pandemic, he donated funds for research into early treatment. Following the release of the vaccines, he took two Moderna shots, which caused him to lose vision in one eye. Still, he trusted the narrative.   Will Dove  00:24 Then an acquaintance told him she knew 3 otherwise healthy people who had all died within one week of taking the vaccines. And still Steve believed.   Will Dove  00:35 Then the man who came to clean his carpets told him he couldn’t get the second shot because he’d had a heart attack two minutes after the first one.   Will Dove  00:45 Finally, Steve realized that something didn’t add up. Either his friends were lying, or someone else was.   Will Dove  00:55 An expert in data analysis, it wasn’t long before he released solid data, from the U.S. government, proving the link between Covid vaccines and a massive surge in injuries and deaths. He predicted the vaccines would be withdrawn within 2 weeks in light of this information.   Will Dove  01:14 Years later, Steve is still working tirelessly to reveal the truth, and even conducts his own research by financing third party independent surveys.   Will Dove  01:25 What he’s found has convinced him that not only are the COVID vaccines anything but ‘safe and effective’, but that all vaccines are dangerous.   Will Dove  01:35 In the case of the MMR vaccines, he’s offered a $5 million dollar prize to anyone who can prove statistically that these vaccines don’t cause autism. So far, no one has collected.   Will Dove  01:51 And yet, despite clear evidence of the link between vaccines and autism, as well as a host of other health issues, provincial governments add more vaccines to childhood vaccination schedules every year. Almost every child in Canada will receive or has received the MMR vaccine. 1 in 36 of them will develop autism.   Will Dove  02:22 Steve, it's a real honor to have you on the show.   Steve Kirsch  02:25 Well, it's good to be here.   Will Dove  02:27 I reached out to you, I've been following your Substack for ages now, you're doing some, in my opinion, some of the best research out there, research that other people aren't doing. You, of course, you do have a background in data analysis. So, you're producing some very valid results. But I had a really interesting experience. When I was setting up this interview, my wife asked me, “Who are you interviewing today?”, I said Steve Kirsch. She said, “Who’s Steve Kirsch?”, which shocked me, because my wife does a lot of the research for our organization. She posts a lot of the stuff to our searchable news library. And I thought everybody in the freedom movement knew who Steve Kirsch was. But if my wife doesn't know, then I'm going to assume that some of my viewers don't.   Will Dove  03:08 So, could you please begin by giving us a background on yourself, starting with your experience in the computer industry, the technology industry, and then of course leading into the COVID narrative and what's happened to you and how you got active in that.   Steve Kirsch  03:23 Sure. So, I have a background in computers. I was actually at the ARPANET, the original Internet node number one, I wrote the email program that was used by the people who invented the internet. So, that was interesting. So, I got to know a bunch of people there and kind of helped get it all started. And then went to MIT, thought I knew a lot about computer science. I majored in electrical engineering and got a master's and bachelor's degree from MIT, then spent a lot of time in high tech starting various companies, and had been very successful as a serial entrepreneur. So, I started one company after another.   Steve Kirsch  04:12 And when COVID hit, my company basically said, you have to vacate the premises, work from home, and so this was stressful for me. So, I basically looked for what I could do to make a difference to end the pandemic. And so, one of the things was early treatment, and I started the COVID-19 early treatment fund to fund researchers who are looking at effective early treatments and we were successful in finding at least one of them, which was fluvoxamine. We also funded the trial that David Boulware did on hydroxychloroquine that actually showed that hydroxychloroquine worked, but Boulware didn't interpret the data correctly, David Wiseman did.   Steve Kirsch  05:05 And so, some of the science where I've been accused of funding research that shows that hydroxychloroquine doesn't work. And all the research actually did show it worked. It's just that the paper claimed that it didn't. So anyway, I went from that, and then I tried to get an e-way from the FDA on fluvoxamine, and they rejected it, saying that there's insufficient evidence. I’m going like, wow! These guys must be really, really - they must have a super high bar at the FDA higher than I ever thought. And so it must be that they only approve stuff that is not only super safe because fluvoxamine has been on the market for like four or five decades, and there are no fatalities essentially caused by the drug. Maybe people who have the drug have some risky symptoms it causes, but the drug itself doesn't cause people to become suicidal.   Steve Kirsch  06:17 So, it's a safe drug, especially was taken in very low doses, which is what we were asking the FDA to approve. And they said, we're not convinced, even though you've got two completely separate trials showing remarkable efficacy of keeping people out of the hospital. And so, it's safe, and it's effective. And even people with no knowledge of medicine, are scrambling for this drug. It was tested at Golden Gate Fields where they rolled it out to people who were sick there. And the management of Golden Gate Fields, went to the doctor and said, “hey, my medicine cabinet.” So, it's obvious to normal people. But apparently, you have to have like jump over this really high bar, just to get an EUA at the FDA, even with a drug that's on the market.   Will Dove  07:12 I can’t identify the problem there, Steve, you've told us it kept people from the hospital. Without that wasn't the way it's supposed to work. There’s no treatment until you’re dying, and then you can come to the hospital.   Steve Kirsch  07:23 But at the time, I'm believing all the bullshit. I’m believing everything they're telling me, like, I'm vaccinated up the wazoo with all the other vaccines, and I'm believing everything they told me. So, then they say, oh, we've got this vaccine, and it works and safe and effective. And I'm thinking like, wow, that's great! New technology. That's how they got it done so fast. So that kind of makes sense, right? Because if it was old technology that I'd say, well, I had to be 10 years, but this is new tech, and so  at the end, and they had just rejected, what to me was an obvious no-brainer drug. So,  my assumption was that this vaccine must be like super no-brainer, must be like, the safest thing ever. Because it was developed so fast. And so, I'm lining up to take my shots, I get two shots. And I don't have any immediate side effects. I had some minor side effects, a little loss of vision in one of my eyes due to the COVID vaccine, but maybe not.   Will Dove  08:34 Sorry. You're saying minor effects, you lost vision in one eye, Steve. Has it come back?   Steve Kirsch  08:39 I can still see through it.   Will Dove  08:43 I'm not sure in describing that as just minor. But alright, please continue.   Steve Kirsch  08:45 But anyway, what I found was that a month after I got both shots, I heard from one of my followers on Twitter, and she asked me, “Are these shots safe and effective?” And I'm singing the - from the playbook, of course, they are as the safest thing you ever heard, blah, blah, blah, just repeating everything I've been told. And I said, “Why are you asking?” And she says, “Well, three of my relatives got the shot. And a week later, they're dead. And they were perfectly healthy before.”   Steve Kirsch  09:19 And so, I'm thinking like, well, okay, the vaccines might kill one in a million. So, ten to the six to the third power is 10 to the 18. Therefore, either she's lying to me, or the drugs not safe. Okay. And so, that’s only possibilities. So, I write that off as a one off. But then a week later, my carpet cleaner shows up at my doorstep. He's wearing a mask and I'm like, “Hey, don't you know, if you get two shots? You don't have to wear a mask anymore.” Like, I'm believing everything that they're telling me, right? And I'm repeating it and spreading it out. I was basically a misinformation spreader.   Steve Kirsch  10:12 And so, my carpet cleaner says, “I couldn’t get the second shot.” I said, “Why not?” He said, “Well, after the first shot, two minutes after the first shot, I had a heart attack.” And I said, “Spend the night in the hospital.” And I said, “You had a heart attack, two minutes after the shot, not two minutes before, but two minutes after.” And he said, Yeah, and he said, “My life has never been the same afterwards.” He's been in excruciating pain ever since the one shot. So, at that point, I knew that they are lying to us, right? Because this guy isn't lying to me, he has no reason to lie to me. I'm quizzing him as to why he's wearing a mask. And he's telling me the story. And he’s clearly been in pain and is seeing doctors about that, I've seen his medical records. So, there's no doubt, at that point that the medical community's been lying to us.   Steve Kirsch  11:24 And so, then I started just to get further confirmation, I started looking at the various data. I've looked at other studies that have been published, I look at the clinical trials, talk to a lot of people. And all the data was consistent. It showed that these vaccines were a disaster. And so, I wrote up an article for TrialSiteNews, it was about 150 pages or so. And I collected all the data for that in two weeks. And it all showed that the vaccines are super unsafe and are killing people. And I thought, and I told my wife, I said, “Look, after this article appears, two weeks, it'll all be over.”   Will Dove  12:13 Anyway, years later.   Steve Kirsch  12:15 Yeah, years later. And people start realizing about just what this stuff is.   Will Dove  12:20 Moderna, from the points of view with the shots that you had, now have, I believe, some 30 mRNA vaccines that they're working on for everything under the sun.   Steve Kirsch  12:30 Yep. Yeah. So anyway, that's how I got my start. And I said, wait a minute, they're not listening to this, this date is clear. So, I spent the years afterward basically, trying to communicate and let people know, hey, this data is not consistent with a safe and effective vaccine. It's not safe, and it's not effective. In fact, the best data that I have, which is US government data, large US government data, US nursing homes, and the VA. These are gold standard databases, and various is the gold standard databases for side effects. They all show this is the most dangerous vaccine ever, and it's not prevented hospitalizations or death. In fact, it's likely done the opposite. But you could argue about that, but you certainly could not say that these vaccines have saved any lives.   Steve Kirsch  13:33 And so, and there's just lots of data that's out there, but nobody wants to talk to me about it. And nobody on the other side, like yeah, this interview with you, like you're I guess a conspiracy theorist like me, which means that we come up with these concepts that happened to disagree with what the mainstream is telling us.   Will Dove  13:58 Can you say that it’s been proven provable?   Steve Kirsch  14:01 Yeah, well, you know, the difference between conspiracy theorist and fact, is what like six months is yes, that joke. So, anyway, ever since that time, I've been trying to spread things. I've been a lifetime banned on Twitter, two times. I've been lifetime ban on medium. I've a lifetime ban on Wikipedia. And at that point that got – oh, and a lifetime ban on LinkedIn, too. And so, I got the message and so I don't post on Facebook anymore. The only reason I don't have a lifetime ban on Facebook is because they can't lifetime ban me if I don't post there apparently, but maybe they could just to make sure.   Will Dove  14:53 And of course we have similar…   Steve Kirsch  14:54 As a precautionary measure.   Will Dove  14:56 I've been banned on YouTube. I've been banned on Facebook. I've been very careful about what we were posting there. I just got banned on LinkedIn. You know, there's no, anyway…   Steve Kirsch  15:09 Welcome to the club! We should start a lifetime banned on LinkedIn.   Will Dove  15:16 I sell to make these kinds of little diversions, but it just occurred to me as you were talking about being banned on Twitter, lifetime ban on Twitter, given your connections within the tech industry, I have to imagine that you're probably no more than a phone call away from Elon. Can’t you just call up and say, hey, can you turn me back on?   Steve Kirsch  15:33 Yeah, he turned me back on.   Will Dove  15:35 Okay, good. Good. All right. I'm glad to hear that.   Steve Kirsch  15:37 But it took Elon to - Elon had to buy the company in order for me to come back. Otherwise, I'd still be dead as a doornail on Twitter.   Will Dove  15:49 Now, I want to move on to your own research, your own data. That was one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you because as I said earlier on, you're one of the very few people out there who’s doing your own original research. And using it, comparing it to other people's research and finding the similarities in the data. And I wanted to talk about that before we get into your own polls, your own data analysis, the validity of the data, you did something really interesting. You did a side-by-side test between X and it was something else, I can't remember what it was with the same poll, but completely different audiences. And you get the same result.   Steve Kirsch  16:28 Yeah, replication is the key to science. If you have a scientific study or scientific solution, and it can be replicated by others independently, or replicated using different techniques, you probably got the right answer.   Will Dove  16:45 Right. So…   Steve Kirsch  16:47 That's how science works.   Will Dove  16:48 The other thing I think the viewers should know is you put your money where your mouth is, you did extremely well from your tech background. So at least you put up in many cases, you put up challenges saying that you will pay X amount of money for somebody who can prove that this assertion that you've made based on the data is not true, in one case $5 million to prove that vaccines do not trigger autism.   Steve Kirsch  17:11 Yeah.   Will Dove 17:11 No takers. No takers, right?   Steve Kirsch  17:16 No, no takers.   Steve Kirsch  17:19 Like it's such an accepted scientific fact everybody should be rushing. And it doesn't have to be $5 million. I mean, I'll do it for 250,000, just because there's a bunch of overhead and involved in setting up these challenges. It's not worth my time, if it's not at least 250,000. But look, you know, people could mortgage their house and just bet me and just double it instantly, because of course, everybody knows that vaccines don't cause autism, right? That's what the scientific consensus says.   Steve Kirsch  17:50 No study has made the link, including when the CDC did it. And of course, the reason they don't show the link is because they delete the data that shows the link before they published the study. That's what the CDC did. It's exactly what they did. And nobody's calling them out on it. The paper is still there, though, and William Thompson admitted that he was ordered to destroy the evidence by his bosses at the CDC linking vaccines and autism. Like if that doesn't tell you that vaccines cause autism, I don't know what will. I mean, that is so blatantly obvious.   Will Dove  18:32 Right. And later on, we'll get into another mutual acquaintance of ours, Dr. Jessica Rose, expert in the VAERS system who has proved positive they removed a huge amount of data from that. But I was going to start with the COVID deaths, the COVID vaccine injuries, but we're on the topic of vaccines causing autism. So, let's talk about that, Steve. You did your own surveys on this. And you have at least one, I found extremely compelling story of that police detective. And she spoke anonymously, but you know her name, you called the police station, you verified who she essentially is, let's talk about this data.   Steve Kirsch  19:12 Well, okay, well, that data is on SIDS, sudden infant death syndrome.   Will Dove  19:17 Sorry, thank you for reminding me that. Well, that was on SIDS. We'll get to that later. So, let's talk about the autism data.   Steve Kirsch  19:21 Sure.   Will Dove  19:21 So, you did your own survey on this?   Steve Kirsch  19:25 Yeah. So, there have been papers published showing that vaccines cause autism and the odds ratio of it is around five to one. Okay, and that means that 80% of the autism is caused by vaccines because 99% of people get vaccines and if the odds ratio is five to one on vaccines, it essentially means that vaccines are causing 80% of the autism. So, four out of five cases could be more, could be less. Four or five cases are caused by the vaccine. So, if you want to eliminate autism, we should stop vaccinating our kids. It's insane.   Steve Kirsch  20:06 Okay, so anyway, this is what the data in the peer reviewed medical journals found. I decided to well, let's just make sure I can survey my audience. Now my audience is interesting, because my audience, about half of them are fully unvaxxed. And about half of them, there's a group in the middle, but there's an unvaxxed contingent and there's a fully vaxxed contingent of the people who follow me. Because some people who realize what happened to them follow me. And of course, people who were unvaxxed realized that they're unsafe, and follow me too.   Steve Kirsch  20:45 So, I have equal numbers on both sides of fully vaxxed and fully unvaxxed. That gives me a huge advantage in doing surveys, because I can do surveys, I only have to get 10,000 responses. And I got, you know, 1000s in one group and 1000s in the other group, and the numbers are large enough for me to compare. And what I found is I found a five to one odds ratio on - if you're fully vaccinated, you're five times more likely to get autism than people who are fully unvaccinated. So, I found the same result. And I did it just through surveys.   Steve Kirsch  21:23 I don't know how you could explain that.   Will Dove  21:26 And I don't have the numbers in my head more than vaguely, but I bet you do. Prior to vaccines, autism was almost unheard of. If you've got an autistic kid to the doctor, like, I didn't have to check the medical research. I don't know what is it? Now, I think it's like one in every 47 kids.   Steve Kirsch  21:45 Oh no, it’s more frequent than that for sure. Even the CDC admits it's more frequent. It's like one in 30 something that the CDC admits which means it's probably much more than that.   Will Dove  21:56 Yes, of course it is.   Will Dove  22:00 Alright.   Steve Kirsch  22:01 And if you look at the vaccine schedule, it went from nothing, a few vaccines to now it's like it somewhere 80 or 90 vaccines that the kids get. It's crazy. And all the studies, every single study that's been published has shown that the kids who are fully unvaxxed are much healthier. In all the metrics that they looked at. They looked at number of doctor visits. They looked at number of chronic diseases. They looked at if you have ADHD or not? Do you have epilepsy? Do you have food allergies? Do you have, you know, the list goes on and on? Do you have any kind of autoimmune disease? Do you have diabetes, so long list and they're all elevated. And if you have multiple chronic diseases, it's way more likely that you were hyper vaccinated than if you were unvaccinated. The unvaccinated basically very rarely have multiple chronic diseases, and rarely even have a single chronic disease.   Steve Kirsch  23:19 And so, there's huge health differences in every single study that has been published in the peer reviewed literature that compares the fully unvaccinated with the fully vaccinated shows that and confirms that. There's no doubt about it. There's nobody who can argue with that. So why are we vaccinating our kids when the fully unvaccinated kids do better, it makes no sense. And I know of a clinic personally, I've talked to the doctors there. They don't vaccinate, they recommend to the parent, so you don't vaccinate kids, the parents listen to the doctor's advice, they don't vaccinate. And what happens is that those kids are healthier. They've never had an autism case in 25 years. Thousands and thousands and thousands of kids, zero autism. That's impossible. If it was caused by environmental factors, or it was congenital, and all this stuff, all these excuses. If any of those things were the case, then they would do just the same as everybody else. But zero autism, they should have one in 30 or 31 or 35, one in 35 cases. Zero, and they've treated over 6000 kids at that clinic over the last 25 years.   Steve Kirsch  24:54 They have zero autism cases. And of course, they want to be written up because they don’t want to have their medical licenses revoked, for speaking out the truth against the narrative, so they just give a super low profile.   Will Dove  25:07 Which is exactly what would happen, you also know Dr. Andrew Wakefield, somebody I've done interviews with. He was the original, well, I mean probably not the original, but probably the best-known case prior to last few years - of a doctor who told the truth about vaccines, and specifically in this case, autism, and just got completely canceled. I mean, they just destroyed and forgot.   Steve Kirsch  25:27 Yeah. Because they want to show you, they want to show people what happens if you challenge the narrative. They basically want, you know, it's like, well, gee, they should have also set his house on fire and have him killed. But no, they didn't go to that extreme. But there are other doctors that found very similar things. So, I know, one doctor who is now retired. And he treated hundreds of autism cases. And he told me he had 44 autism cases where the autism happened, like, kids normal one day, and that kid turns autistic. I mean, the kids like perfectly normal, and then the next day, with 24 hours later, the kid is banging his head against the wall. He's not socially interacting. It's completely obvious. You don't mean to be a – you don't need to have a degree in medicine to figure this one out.   Will Dove  26:22 And to clarify what you're just saying, Steve, when you said 24 hours later, you mean 24 hours after they just had a vaccine?   Steve Kirsch  26:29 Well, I'm saying you go from normal to severely autistic within 24 hours. In other words, the day before, you are perfectly normal. And within 24 hours after the normal day, you are the next - basically the next day.   Will Dove  26:46 Well, it wasn't necessarily 24 hours after the vaccine, but they had recently had a vaccine, the kid had been entirely normal, they got the vaccine, and then sometime in a short period of time after that, as you're saying 24 hours ago, a completely normal kid to fully autistic.   Steve Kirsch  27:00 And guess what? In this guy's practice, 100% of the cases happen within two weeks after a vaccine. That's impossible! That’s impossible if the vaccines aren't causing autism. This guy is the unluckiest guy in the world ever or vaccines cause autism?   Will Dove  27:24 And I think that's the perfect segue into what I stumbled on earlier, the SIDS connection. Because ever since I reported on your interview with that detective. It goes through my mind just about every week, because the figures are horrific. It's just sickening. I have them memorized. But I know I'm sure you do, too. And it was your interview. So, I'm going to let you explain what this detective told you.   Steve Kirsch  27:52 Yeah, so I don't remember the exact number. It was a long time ago.   Will Dove  27:56 Because like I said, I've got it memorized.   Steve Kirsch  27:58 Great, awesome!   Will Dove  28:00 250 SIDS deaths over a history of eight years. And she found by talking to the parents, in 50% of the cases, they'd had a vaccine in the last 48 hours and 70% in the last week.   Steve Kirsch  28:15 Yeah, statistically impossible. So, I did a FOIA request on the Omaha Police Department, to ask them to produce the record. So, I could say, hey, this is not just somebody telling me this. These are the official records. They refused to comply with the FOIA request, saying they're not required to do work to pull those records. Which is true. The law doesn't require them to do work, they have to be able to pull it with a simple query. Because this is not a simple query of SIDS. And I'm not allowed to see the records because a privacy reasons as of course, you know, the child died. I mean, you want to keep that private. You don't want to let people know.   Will Dove  29:02 Well, I mean, I'm going to pick on this, Steve, because certainly they can they can redact the names. So yes, so, all you want is the data.   Steve Kirsch  29:14 Yeah, but they're not required to produce the records even redacted, because it's considered a confidential report. So, I basically got nowhere. They said, “We're not going to go produce it.” And then when I tried to call him and reason with him, I said, “Look, it can save lives.” They basically didn't return any of my phone calls. And I brought it up with other police departments who I thought were willing to challenge the narrative and not a single Police Department is willing to cooperate to produce this public record. You know, this should be out as, hey, here's an interesting statistic. Did you know that in the last 12 years 75% of the SIDS cases happened within 48 hours after the after a vaccine. They could expose that. But you see, there's nobody asking the - they're not looking to do that.   Will Dove  30:16 If there's any comfort, Steve, and I doubt that it is, is no better here. In fact, right now, there's a court case going on in Canada, a detective, Helen Grus, who did exactly the same thing. She dug into the SIDS sociation with vaccines, found, of course, a correlation and was dismissed from her position and accused of unprofessional conduct. Because that wasn't an authorized investigation. And I guess the comment that I would make, in both the case of you trying to get this data and what they're doing to Detective Grus here. Well, okay, maybe they're not required to do that. But how about some common human decency? Babies are dying in record numbers. Maybe we might want to do something about that.   Steve Kirsch  31:00 Right. Like, what are the real numbers? They should tell us, fine. If she's wrong, just tell us what the real numbers are. And let somebody look at the records. Why are we letting kids die? I mean, it makes me really upset.   Will Dove  31:18 Yeah, I mean, surely, it's just sickening. When you see the statistics, the figures. I mean, this isn't the kid here and there. No, this is a catastrophe.   Steve Kirsch  31:29 Yeah. And nobody wants to touch it. Nobody has the courage to touch it. There is no politician, there's no lawmaker, there's no elected official, who has the courage just to go to the police department and say, hey, Chief of Police, I'd like you to produce this report. There's no privacy issue at all. You have the data; you could go and produce the report. Why don't you just produce the report? Let's settle this issue. Not a single police department in the world will do this.   Steve Kirsch  32:08 Why? Why don't they just settle it? Come on, you know, why? Why do we have to keep this stuff hidden from the public? Why?   Will Dove  32:20 I know it's a rhetorical question. But of course, the answer is for the same reason that we can't get the truth about the COVID narrative. Somebody’s paying them to keep quiet.   Steve Kirsch  32:27 Yeah, for some reason, it's all about the, there must be some belief that if you hide public health data from the public, you improve health outcomes. Now I have not seen a paper, I've not seen a single paper in the peer reviewed scientific literature that says that. But apparently that's what everybody believes. They believe that if you hide the SIDS data, you're going to improve outcomes. If you hide the data showing vaccines cause autism, you're going to improve outcomes. I mean, I guess that's the reason that they do it, right? Nah, they do it because they're all scared to challenge the narrative. They don't want to be criticized by their peers, as a spreading misinformation, even though all they're doing is reporting on the data. Nobody wants to report on the data.   Steve Kirsch  33:26 You know, not even the UK Office of National Statistics wants to report on the data. I challenged them to produce more detailed records on an analysis that they did, they already did a key series cohort analysis on vaccines. But the buckets for their case series were really big. And I said you should do a smaller bucket, you know, give us finer granularity, just reran it. They said, well, we don't think that vaccines are a problem. And that would take time, and so we're not going to do it. And there might be a privacy issue because if one person died, if a 40-year-old person died in one month, and he's the only 40-year-old who died in a month in the UK, which would be impossible because 40-year-olds die all the time. They said that you would know who it is. And you would know when they were vaccinated.   Steve Kirsch  34:30 And my gosh, that would be the end of the world because that would be such a privacy invasion on the dead. And it's really important to make sure that we protect the privacy of the dead. It's more important that we do that, then let the living know that all these dead people were killed by the vaccine. Like, Will, I mean, do you think it's more - which is more important, saving lives or protecting the privacy of the dead? Like, if we had hundred dead people and they all died two seconds after they got the vaccine, is it better that the public not know that? Or is the better that the public know that so that it can be investigated? It’s so insane!   Will Dove  35:16 I think your answer, Steve, is what we were discussing earlier, the fact that you and I have both been heavily canceled for telling people the truth about it. Now, I know your time is limited. So, I want to move on to your COVID vaccine studies. Let's start with the deaths. You've done a number of studies and data analysis on this. But the one that - that was for the injury, so I'm going to let you decide what data you think is most significant in terms of the deaths?   Steve Kirsch  35:45 Well, the death data from multiple sources shows that the vaccines kill like one in a thousand people who get the vaccine. And so, the number of people who have gotten, it's actually the number of doses given, 1 per 1000 doses results in a death. And so there are about 750,000 doses that were given in the United States. So, you know, you're looking on the order of half a million to a million deaths. And the various numbers, if you look at the various numbers and compute off the various numbers, and reported by at least a factor of 40. And you'll look at those numbers you come up with similar types of numbers, in terms of the number of dead. And also, if there have been surveys done, Rasmussen reports, which is independent polling company in the United States, and Will, they're not afraid to ask questions.   Will Dove  36:59 Yes. One of the very few I often check Rasmussen myself. Yeah.   Steve Kirsch  37:05 And they found like 10% of the - they asked people, “How many in your household died from COVID? How many in your household died from the vaccine?” It was like 10% and 11%, virtually identical. And of course, a lot of people who took the vaccine don't realize that vaccine can kill people. So, they just think that people died by accident, which means in reality, that the vaccine killed more people than the virus did.   Will Dove  37:32 Right. And of course, the other thing we need to point out is that the virus did kill nearly as many as people may think they did because of the PCR testing?   Steve Kirsch  37:39 Well, it's not the PCR testing, what killed people was that people would have difficulty breathing, they go into the hospital, and then they'd be given the hospital treatment protocol of remdesivir, and withholding steroids and all this, and the treatment protocols led to their death.   Will Dove  37:58 Yes. What I'm saying is, because of the gross invalidity of the PCR test with 97% false positive rate, you have an awful lot of people out there who think their relative died of COVID. But that wasn't what they had, might have flu. But it could have been a lot of things, but it probably wasn't COVID. But as the point you've made, they still went to the hospital respiratory distress and got killed with remdesivir. And put on a ventilator.   Steve Kirsch  38:23 Yeah. And we don't have to get into that argument about…   Will Dove  38:27 I’m aware about that. But I'm more interested talking about the data. So, let's continue on with that. You were talking about Rasmussen and the study they did. But I know you've done your own polls on this as well.   Steve Kirsch  38:38 Yeah, I mean, I've asked people hey, you know, I've done multiple polls on both my reader base and also, I've done independent polls, where I don't control the people who respond to the poll. So, it's done by a third-party polling agency. And we've had numbers where people knew twice as many people who died from the vaccine versus from COVID, or even higher. So, those surveys that Rasmussen did are repeatable, but nobody wants to repeat them. Nobody wants to show us the truth. There is no reputable polling agency that will try to replicate or not the Rasmussen poll, we are afraid to ask the question. They are afraid to ask the question. In fact, I tried to do a Google survey on Google asking questions like how many people died from the COVID vaccine? They said we will not accept your survey question.   Will Dove  39:42 I'm surprised it didn’t say they’ll come to your house for doing that.   Steve Kirsch  39:48 Not yet. Not yet. Don't give them any ideas. But yeah, in America, you're just simply not allowed to ask any question that might be counter narrative. Santa Clara County, I got a FOIA response from Santa Clara County, and I did the numbers on it, which they never did. And the numbers showed that for the people who came down with infections, it was like 75% of the people were vaccinated, but like 95% of the people who got infected with COVID were vaccinated, which means vaccination actually made things worse. And I said, so I talked to the epidemiologist who prepared the report, she said, “Oh, that's not my area, but I'll have someone get back to you.” Nobody ever comes back to me.   Steve Kirsch  40:42 So, I contacted the media relations for the Santa Clara County Department of Public Health, saying hey, had explained this. They never got back to me. I called every day for three weeks. They never got back to me. So finally, I tried to get a supervisor down Santa Clara County board of supervisors to ask them that question. I just want to know the answer. Why are you, like you're ghosting me? Like, just explain it. I mean, look, if it's not the vaccine causing this increase what is? I mean, just explain it to me. I mean, clearly you know what it is. You're not telling anybody, so you clearly don't think it's the vaccine causing it? Nobody answered. So didn't get any supervisor answer. Finally got Joe Simitian, on the board of supervisors, he answered my calls after numerous times. And he was very nice. And he said, “Yep, I'll have my staff look into it.” I said, “Great!” So, his staff looks into it. I said, great. I'm on it. I sent in an inquiry, and then his staff is on vacation. Haven't heard that.   Will Dove  41:58 That might be a very long vacation, Steve.   Steve Kirsch  42:02 Yeah. And so, this is like, it's a repeated pattern. Whenever you see data, they don't want to talk about it. They want to change the subject. Even these people on Twitter, like this one guy on X, he’s called - he calls himself the real truther. And so, I said, fine, just explain. Look, if the vaccines aren't causing deaths, just explain to me, Apple Valley village. So, in Apple Valley village, I got a tip. I got a phone call from somebody who knows somebody very well who works there. And the tip was, when they rolled out that they will - I know when they rolled out the vaccines, it was at the end of December at Apple Valley village healthcare. And they rolled it out. And they had a call back to staff because people were dying in droves.   Steve Kirsch  43:00 So, I know exactly when they rolled out the vaccine. And then I checked the official Medicare records. And there was 0% death rate from COVID in that facility every day, before they rolled out the vaccines. They had 29 cases of COVID zero deaths. Within days, after rolling out the vaccine at Apple Valley village, they had 28 deaths in 90 COVID cases. That is a death rate, a case fatality rate of 30% when it was zero before the vaccines rolled out. How does that happen? Well, I wanted to know so I called people at the facility to find out how they’ll explain that. They never called me back. I called over and over and over. They wouldn't call me back. I don't want to spread misinformation. I'm sure there's a reason why the death rate went from 0% to 30% after the shots, but they won't tell me. And so, I said to the real truther, explain it to me and he says no, you answer my question first, here's my question.   Steve Kirsch  44:25 He keeps repeating that, that's the whole deal. They, you know, you avoid answering my questions by asking me a question. It's like deflection. Nobody wants to talk about this stuff. There's never going to be, the New York Times is never going to call them, 60 Minutes is never going to investigate this. It's all going to be swept under the rug. I'm going to talk to a lawyer today actually, and say, look, this is criminal because you can't inject something and see the results and see people die unknowingly, then continue to inject people. And it's in the Medicare records that they did that.   Will Dove  45:10 Yes. So, let's get on to the last subject, because this is the one I actually think is, aside from the horrendous SIDS, this is probably the most damning data simply because it's so very clear. And that is the severe adverse reactions. And you found not just from analyzing the data, but from your own surveys, I believe it was 8% of people who have been injected, have had a severe adverse reaction, meaning they had to go to the hospital now, by go to the hospital, folks, that doesn't necessarily mean that they were in there for days or minutes, they had to seek medical attention. It was bad enough that they had to get medical attention. That's pretty significant,  8% is huge.   Steve Kirsch  45:59 8% is a disaster.   Will Dove  46:02 I don't have the numbers in my head, how many Americans have been injected?   Steve Kirsch  46:08 The numbers of Americans that have been injected is about 275 million Americans or so.   Will Dove  46:16 You’re a math guy, I'm not. So, if you do 8% of that. What are we talking about?   Steve Kirsch  46:20 You're getting like a 20-22 million or so, or more people, 22 million had to seek medical attention. Ah! Safe and effective! It’s such a joke. The CDC had that data. And they kept it from the public, that it took Aaron Siri, who's the lawyer for Dell Bigtree over a year in court. And they finally turned it over when the judge forced them to reveal that data. And what? It shows 8% of the people had to seek medical attention. How is that something that the CDC doesn't tell people about? And the other thing we learned from a FOIA request is that there were 770 different safety signals. So, a safety signal would be pulmonary embolism. A safety signal would be intracranial hemorrhage, a safety signal would be cardiac arrest. 770 different symptoms.   Will Dove  47:20 Yes,   Steve Kirsch  47:20 770 different safety signals for the CDC, and they said nothing.   Will Dove  47:25 Yeah, and what you know, as well as I know, because you've worked with Dr. Rose. And she's the one who was able to prove they removed a huge amount of data, to do what? To hide the safety signals.   Steve Kirsch  47:35 Yeah, well, no, but they acknowledged it in the FOIA request, they said, hey, here's the 770 that triggered safety signals. And by the way, we didn't warn the American people about any of them. We didn't even say that hundreds of safety signals have been triggered, or one safety signal was triggered, or like they didn't say anything. This would be the equivalent of you're going into on a commercial jet. And the pilot runs his checklist. And every single item on the checklist fails, and the pilot says nothing. That's the equivalent here of what the CDC did. It's so unethical, and nobody is calling them out on this. There will never be anyone in Congress that will ever ask the CDC the question, hey, the FOIA shows 770 safety signals were triggered by your own calculations and your own metrics. Why didn't you say anything about this to the public? Nobody's asking these questions.   Will Dove  48:42 But there’re very few people who are asking the questions, but what the problem is, we're not getting any answers.   Steve Kirsch  48:48 Well, nobody's asking the question, and we're not getting any answers. And  I've been calling the FDA for a while now many times and I said, “Hey, if you want to stop the information, superspreaders like me and my friends, then let us have a public discussion about this. You can explain all this, you can explain why you didn't tell the public about the 770 safety signals. You can explain why and there's 100% of all the various reports on pulmonary embolism are from one vaccine. It's the COVID vaccine. How could the COVID vaccine not be causing pulmonary embolism?   Steve Kirsch  49:26 And that's not the only condition where there's 100%. I can make a long list of them. I want to ask them these questions because it looks to me like these vaccines are super unsafe. And if they're not, simply tell us why. But you know what? I talked to the PR guy, the assistant head of Media Relations at the CDC, oh, sorry, at the FDA. And he said, Yep, I've offered to have the - I've told him that you guys are all willing to debate them, but they don't want to debate you. They want to stop the misinformation and their way of stopping the misinformation is to censor us. That's not how it's done in science. You don't resolve scientific differences through censorship, you do it through civil discussion.   Will Dove  50:22 And I want to point out to my viewers who possibly don't follow your Substack, you have on several occasions, challenged people on the other side to an open debate. No one has taken you up on it.   Steve Kirsch  50:33 No! It's frustrating. I've had discussions with some people, but these people that I've had discussions with are not any of the people that you would see on CNN. What we need are people who are legitimate scientists, who, I'll simply ask, “How do you explain this? How do you explain that 100% of the various reports for condition, you know, these 20 conditions are all from the COVID vaccine if the vaccine is not causing this? It's vaccine dependent. How can it be just a COVID vaccine and not any other vaccine? What's the confounder on that one?” I want to hear the answer. I really want to hear the answer. I'm so frustrated, nobody will talk to me. Nobody will tell me the answer. They won't even tell me the answer in writing. They won't even write a report saying, here cautious, you know, top 20 things, here's the simple explanation for them.   Steve Kirsch  51:35 I mean, the problem with these reports are they mislead people. And so, there's nobody there to question them. They say, oh, well, it's just that, gee, the people are reporting in various is optional, and it's they're not medical professionals. And correlation isn't causality. And you have all these excuses that are made, but nothing explains why it's 100% for things like pulmonary embolus, right? You know, how does that happen? It can't happen unless the vaccines are causing the effect.   Will Dove  52:13 All right now, Steve, I know we're coming up on your time limit. But two more questions for you. On the first one, and I'm going to leave my own cards on the table for this one. It has to do with our position on vaccines in general, not just the COVID vaccines. You were a big believer in vaccines, so was I. In 2016, I was the national spokesperson, for Cancer Society. I'd had stage four throat cancer, which I got from an HPV infection. I went on national television, and I told Canadians get your children vaccinated against HPV because then you can prevent the cancer. The biggest regret of my life. I wish I'd known then what I know now. I said I was going to lay my cards on the table. I have gone from being somebody who was entirely convinced that vaccines were a wonderful invention to I am, yep, I am an anti-vaxxer, folks, I don't believe there's such a thing as a safe vaccine. And I've done a fair bit of research. And that's how I've come to that conclusion. But you've done even more research than I have, Steve. So, what's your position now?   Steve Kirsch  53:13 Yeah, so when I had my eyes opened about the COVID vaccines, I started asking people who had been doing this for much longer than I have, I said, “Hey, sir, what are the safe vaccines like which vaccines should I avoid getting like the flu vaccine or whatever? And which ones should I get?” And the answer I got back pretty uniformly was none of them are safe. So, in fact, that has been multiple sources, people who have studied this extensively showed the same thing. The vaccines are not safe.   Steve Kirsch  53:57 The vaccine technology that we have today is fundamentally flawed. And so, the problem that they have is that there's essentially no good way to introduce immunity to a virus. So, the vaccine technologies, there're one of two approaches, you either give somebody attenuated virus, and that can actually work pretty well, but then you run the risk of them. But the problem with the attenuated viruses, I mean, these are normally dead viruses, right? And so, you can't get the immune system to respond to it because it doesn't replicate, right? They just can't see the virus particles and the immune system says, no big deal, not attack. Or you can give them something…   Will Dove  55:05 And that's a very good point, because what they've done there is the machinery that essentially makes it dangerous and allows it to enter the cell and end it to hijack the DNA and replicate itself, they remove that. So of course, you're not going to get the kind of immune response that you need.   Steve Kirsch  55:20 Right. So, they have these things called adjuvants, which are added to the vaccine to make your body react to it. Problem with adjuvants is that they accumulate in your brain where they cause other problems. And so, it ends up being something and then if you look at, if you compare the kids who are totally unvaccinated with the kids who are fully vaccinated, the health outcomes are dramatically different. And so that's what it's all about. At the end of the day, it's all about the health outcomes. And so, the risk benefit simply is not there. And they won't study it, Will, that's the deal. They will not study the unvaccinated versus vaccinated.   Steve Kirsch  56:09 There was a Bill in the US House of Representatives that would force the NIH to finally study the issue and issue a definitive report. The Bill was killed in committee. They don't want anybody to know. And if they don't want anyone to know that, there's no question that the vaccines are unsafe, because if the vaccines were safe, they would be tripping over themselves to approve that. The drug companies would demand it. The drug companies would be running ads saying tell your congressman to approve the clinical study of vaccinated versus unvaccinated and it would have to be an observational study, a retrospective observational study, because they would argue that a prospective study would be unethical because we would be withholding proven treatments from kids. So, fine. Do a retrospective observational study, and you will find that the kids who are unvaccinated are far healthier.   Steve Kirsch  57:34 Why don't they do that? They don't do that because they know the freaking answer. It's the same thing when they did - they were forced to do the autism study, whether the MMR vaccine causes autism. They had to tell the lead researcher, destroy the evidence that shows the link and then we'll publish the paper showing there's no link. That's the way it's done. I mean, it sounds so incredible, Will. And I never would have believed this had this COVID vaccine stuff not happen. And now it makes perfect sense for why there's no connection. There's no connection, because they manipulate the studies, or they do the studies in such a way that it shows no signal, which is easy to do. When kids are getting 96 vaccines, and you withhold one vaccine and look at the difference, you'll find there's no difference because there's huge statistical noise, these records are not perfect. And so, they say, hey, we didn't find a signal here.   Steve Kirsch  58:46 So, there's no connection between vaccines and autism. That's how it's done. That's how the professionals do it. But you see if they really wanted to find an autism signal, they'd be looking at what was the time between the last vaccination and the date that the kid first exhibited autistic symptoms. And they would know immediately that vaccines cause autism. And, of course, all vaccines, well, sorry, the autism experts in the world all know that vaccines cause autism, but they're not allowed to talk about it. And so, they'll tell you privately that yeah, we all know that vaccines cause autism, but we can't talk about it because we would lose all our research grants and we would be denigrated by the members of the medical community and all of that.   Steve Kirsch  59:46 These guys are just deep digging themselves deeper into a hole and they are causing, they are to blame. Their silence is to blame for these autistic kids being born because they couldn’t let people know.   Will Dove  1:00:06 And they know the truth. Yes.   Steve Kirsch  1:00:08 They know the truth. They know the truth, but they won't sacrifice their careers, because they make the calculation that I'm going to be able to do more for autistic kids by keeping my head low, not saying anything and continuing my research for maybe we can find a cure for this, rather than telling the truth and then my research dollars are caught off. And that is how they rationalize their behavior. They think they're more useful that they keep their head low and let somebody else do the dirty work. But nobody else can do the dirty work, because it's only the professionals who are trusted. And if they keep silent about it, it just prolongs the problem.   Will Dove  1:00:47 Yes. And of course, the problem that we have is not just that, but the censorship within the scientific community, with the very notable exception of a very recent paper published in the British Medical Journal, which, surprisingly, has not yet been withdrawn. I wanted to ask you as a last question, because you were the co-author of that curious paper, along with Dr. McCullough, Nathaniel Mead, Dr. Rose, a couple of others whose name escapes me right now. And what I wanted to ask you, Steve, was this, because in the course of this conversation, you revealed that you were deceived at the beginning, you were one of the people who bought the narrative. You said, the vaccines are great, and COVID is going to kill all these people. We're going to save all these people with the vaccines. And with all the stuff that we're doing. And gradually, you came to get enough evidence that you start to question it. And then of course, the answers to your question, being an excellent researcher didn't take you very long to find the truth.   Will Dove  1:01:42 But here we are. And I think what I want to reference is very early on interview where you said, okay, as soon as I put this information out there, two weeks, this whole thing will be over, because the data is very clear. And of course, here we are years later, still fighting this war, still with Big Pharma in their fingers, with their fingers everywhere, controlling a lot of these publications with the money that they put into them. And so all of that preamble is to ask a very simple question. With all of that experience behind you, how surprised were you when they withdrew the paper?   Steve Kirsch  1:02:14 Not surprised at all. In fact, I will be surprised if they didn't withdraw the paper. And I found out later that the reason they withdrew the papers because we're anti-vaxxers, not because of any errors in the paper, not because of there was no - there's something called the COPE guidelines, which govern when you can do a retraction, none of the criteria in the COPE guidelines was satisfied, the paper should never have been retracted. In the documents that the journal retracted it, because we're antivaxxers. So, the journal retracted it based on our beliefs, not what was in the paper. That is unethical. And when I complained about it, nothing happened. So, I've engaged the lawyer I just called him yesterday, in fact, to find out what's going on, because the way to do it is to sue these guys for a lot of money. So that doesn't happen again.   Will Dove  1:03:17 Yes, because it's money that got it retracted in the first place. So sure, let's fight fire with fire. Steve, thank you so much for your time today for all the fantastic research you're doing. Folks, if you're unfamiliar with Steve’s Substack, you will find a link to it underneath this interview. Go check it out. He's got some of the best data out there. And for the lawyer especially, yes, fighting fire with fire. Give them the gear, Steve, please.   Steve Kirsch  1:03:43 Yep. Thank you. Thanks, Will.