[Speaker 2] (0:00 - 2:06) Natural health products are under attack by Trudeau's government, who want nothing less than to remove your access to them, leaving you with no other option but dangerous and expensive pharmaceuticals. Sean Buckley of the Natural Health Product Protection Association has been fighting for our rights to these products for 16 years, recently with one of the largest paper petitions in Canadian history, and with Bill C-368, a private member's bill that would reverse the recent amendments to the Food and Drug Act that would be used to deny you access to these products. But now, there's a need for urgency.   Bill C-368, which passed its second reading in the House this past spring, is now under serious threat due to amendments introduced by the NDP and Bloc Quebecois. Amendments that would make C-368 impotent and maintain the changes already made to the Food and Drugs Act. Please, watch this short interview with Sean Buckley, then take action before tomorrow night, that's Wednesday, November 27th.   You will find links to the action items below this interview. It will only take a few minutes of your time. Together, we can save our natural health products.   All right, so Sean, we're kind of doing this as almost an emergency, very quick interview to let people know what they can do to help rescue the natural health products. You've been working at this for years and years and years, fighting this war. You put together one of the largest petitions in Canadian history to save our natural health products.   Then you've got Bill C-368, which was intended to reverse some of the more damaging things that they slipped through in the budget bill earlier in the year. But now we've got the NDP and the Bloc Quebecois trying to make changes to it. It's passed its second reading in the House.   And before it goes to the third reading, they're trying to change it, which is basically going to pull its teeth and make it useless. So please explain what they're up to.   [Speaker 1] (2:07 - 12:39) Yeah, and I, you know, just add, I think that the Liberals, because the Liberals and NDP have a majority on the committee. And so how legislation works is, you know, gets first reading, that's just where it's introduced. And then second reading, you know, people have read it.   And so, you know, that's when a bill is really tested. If it gets past second reading, and it did because Canadians in large numbers were calling their MPs and writing their MPs and phoning their MPs and saying, I want this to get in. Like every MP in Canada knows that the Canadian populace supports this bill.   And so it's very rare for a private member's bill to get into committee. That in itself is a miracle. I mean, has it happened 10 times in our history since 1867?   Like it's rare. So it's in committee, the committee knows. So there's 12 members of this committee.   It's an all party committee. And they get to look at the bill and make recommendations before it goes for a final vote. Now, this has been in committee for a long time.   And then all of a sudden at the end, there's this just, you know, amendment after amendment after amendment put forward. And some of them will just totally destroy the bill. And it's not even worth proceeding.   And so we're being gamed. And the worst is, you know, the NDP member on there, Peter Julian, who's the NDP health critic. So he put in an amendment.   And maybe I'll just back up and explain what's happening. So since 2008, Health Canada has been trying to pretend that natural health products need to be regulated like dangerous chemical drugs. So the reality is that the chemical pharmaceuticals are one of the leading causes of our deaths each year.   And Health Canada, although they try and try and try, I've never seen actually a credible report of death caused by a natural health product. Literally lightning is more dangerous to Canadians than every natural product on the market. But Health Canada hates this industry.   And they're trying to get rid of us. So they have wanted us to have the same types of penalties. Now, for Pfizer and the other chemical drug companies, their maximum fine is $5 million a day.   Well, that's pocket change for a big chemical pharmaceutical company. But if you're a natural health product company or a natural health practitioner, like a naturopathic doctor, you know, $5 million a day fine, you can't survive like that. Now we're into the tyranny zone where you can't even resist, even if that's the proper thing to do.   Because we're talking about health products. And then for the chemical drug companies, literally Health Canada has the power to say, you know, jump and they have to ask how high. And if you don't, you got these $5 million a day fines.   And they can order studies and assessments and all of this, which is perfectly appropriate for, you know, a group of products that is one of our leading causes of death. Like we actually, we want that. But when we're talking about peppermint tea or chamomile tea, do we need $5 million a day fines?   Really? Do we need Health Canada to have godlike powers and basically be able to order you to do things that would bankrupt you, even if you're willing to remove the product from the market? So that, just so the audience knows, all this bill does is what happened is Health Canada knew that Canadians do not want their natural products treated like the chemical drugs.   And Health Canada's tried before and the citizens resisted and they've had to back down. So to avoid citizen resistance, they snuck it into the budget bill. Like budget bills, you know, they're like 700, 800 pages long.   They're when the government's spending trillions of dollars a year, they have to adjust laws and create programs. And that's what the budget bill does. You don't expect substantive changes unrelated to the budget, to our food and safety laws, but they snuck it in and they moved us into this category where we're to be treated like chemical drugs with these $5 million a day fines and all these penalties.   And they did it just by changing the definition. So we were excluded because of the definition for this class. It's called therapeutic product class.   So in the budget bill, they changed the definition so that all of a sudden natural products are included where before we were excluded. So all bill C-368 does is it restores the original definition so that then we're no longer involved. It's very simple.   It's like a one clause bill, literally. Like there's a couple of more clauses, but they're meaning, you know, they're just like housekeeping. Like, hey, you know, if somebody accrued this liability since you did this, like, no, no, they're back to the original penalties.   So we're just talking about moving us back to the where we were, get us out of this definition. Well, it's been in committee actually since, you know, before the summer break. Second reading was before the summer break.   So why do you wait until like there's time limits? It can only be a private member's bill can only be in committee for a certain period of time. We're getting near the timeline.   And at the very end, you throw in all these amendments which are going to be voted on on Thursday. So we need people to contact their MPs immediately. But very end you throw in these amendments, they're really going to ruin things.   And some of them, I think, just because they don't even know. Like, so I've raised NDP critic, Peter Julian. Now he's brought into amendments that are made to, meant to destroy this bill and make it completely meaningless.   And Canadians should be mad as can be at the NDP over this. They should. So he's basically, there's like, I think 42 sections that, you know, of this therapeutic product class.   He's saying, well, let's just exempt NHPs from five of them. Well, four of them already don't apply. And the one's kind of meaningless.   Like that's the minister can order you to disclose information about how you're a threat to the environment. Well, okay. So I manufacture peppermint tea and I have to explain to the ministry, minister why peppermint tea is a threat to the environment.   Oh, we could probably live with that applying to NHPs. Like he's just, he's made this whole thing meaningless. All the other powers and penalties that we're worried, really worried about.   So this is political football. It's to make it look like the NDP is on our side. Oh no, no, we are, we are just amending this.   We're agreeing that NHPs should be exempted from these five provisions. But, you know, really it's just, it's a fraud. Just come out and say, you don't support the bill.   And then they also want increased penalties. Like before you were subject to a $5,000 offense, maximum fine, you can get jail too. And there can be other consequences because the criminal code provisions also apply.   So, I mean, I've represented more natural health companies charged under the Food and Drug Act than every other lawyer in Canada combined. And I, we've never had a discussion. Oh boy, the penalties are light.   No, everyone's always terrified about going to court because they're worried about being destroyed. So we don't, we don't need that increased. So I think we should mention what the increase is because it had been 5 million.   Well, it had been 5,000. Then with this trickery in the budget bill, it moved to $5 million a day. And Peter Julian, that the amendment is so poorly drafted, it might actually mean unlimited fines, which is worse than $5 million a day.   And I actually think that was intention. And then the very least he wants the food fines to apply, which brings us into $250,000 per offense, which is still outrageous. Would destroy any natural health product.   Oh, absolutely. And our offenses have been based on risk. So chemical drugs are one of our leading causes of death.   In fact, they're connected to three of our top five leading causes of death are all connected to the chemical drugs. So we've got these $5 million a day fines. Then our next biggest risk category is food.   So like, you know, even peanuts and shellfish. I mean, a large number of Canadians die each year and are hospitalized over food. And then we also food can carry the risk of contamination like E.   coli and stuff like that. So although, you know, we're all comfortable with food from a regulatory perspective, it's a higher risk profile. So it's got not as high penalties as the chemical drugs, but they're meant to be meaningful penalties for the risk.   And then you have NHPs, which health Canada, I'm not aware of a single credible report of death ever. Lightning is more dangerous. Well, then you have a lower risk profile.   You have lower penalties. I mean, in fact, arguably they're not dangerous enough for the federal government to have jurisdiction over them because this is criminal law. Like the Food and Drug Act is a criminal law act and criminal law only applies to things that are truly dangerous.   Now we're segwaying. Can I go into a couple of the other amendments? Yeah, absolutely.   Both the Conservatives and the Bloc Quebecois have introduced an amendment, which I think is well-meaning, but it's misguided and it's going to create huge amounts of problems. And what's happened is the government's trying to justify what they did. So even though we've been, you know, the citizens been resisting this since 2008, like literally for 16 years.   Now all of a sudden the dangerous, and I wish, you know, I couldn't make this stuff up. It's just so stupid. But no, we need to basically give Health Canada godlike powers and destroy natural health product companies because youth are accessing vaping products, flavored vaping products, and nicotine pouches.   Now I wish I was making this up, but this is the justification that's come out. So we all know actually, I think the government's telling us that nicotine has tremendous health benefits. And maybe Dr. Harris is right. So, but that's become the justification. And so I think, you know, with the Bloc Quebecois and conservatives that want this bill to get through, they both have the same amendment, which is, okay, we'll exclude natural health products from this category, except those that contain nicotine. But they haven't asked the question, what products contain nicotine?   [Speaker 2] (12:39 - 12:40) There's a heck of a list.   [Speaker 1] (12:40 - 12:49) Well, I just, in a matter of minutes, you know, was doing a Google search, peppermint tea, chamomile tea, you know, mate.   [Speaker 2] (12:51 - 13:26) I actually have your list here. Let me read it. Black tea, green tea.   As you said, this was something you found in a couple of minutes. If we kept searching, I'm sure we'd find more. And folks, it's not nicotine that's being added.   It's nicotine that occurs naturally in these products. So here's a partial list. Black tea, green tea, chamomile, rosehips, sage, blackberry, mate, linden, peppermint, papaya, celery, cauliflower, eggplant, tomatoes, and potatoes.   And all of them contain trace amounts of nicotine. So if they get away with this, now they can regulate all of that under this law.   [Speaker 1] (13:26 - 14:38) Yeah, well, this is the mischief. And then also some countries, they use nicotine-based herbicides. And so there's going to be some uptake in the nicotine in the plants grown in those areas.   So now, like I say, I think this is well-intentioned, but now we'll have two classes of natural health products. We'll have those that contain nicotine and we'll have those that don't. So now we're going to have this whole new level of, we're introducing another set of tests into every single ingredient in every single product.   So do you want your prices to go up? They're going up. And then there'll be uncertainty because, you know, your peppermint tea one day, that batch may not actually have measurable amounts of nicotine.   And the next one does. Like, so now when Health Canada is doing enforcement, they're going to have to do all this testing too. And I'm sorry, putting, you know, all these godlike powers and high fines on peppermint tea is not going to stop a youth from using flavored vaping products or nicotine.   But like the whole thing is so just so stupid. I've lost faith in Parliament. And I literally feel like what we have here is we've got a whole bunch of kids playing with matches and they know, have no idea of what they're doing.   [Speaker 2] (14:38 - 14:55) Right? I have to say you're undoubtedly a more trusting person than I am, because I don't think this is well-intentioned. I think what they did was they went looking for something that everybody knows is an addictive drug and that can be found in trace amounts in just about everything.   So that they could hold it.   [Speaker 1] (14:55 - 16:06) Well, just hang on a second. Now, now that the rabbit hole goes deeper. I attended in person one of Dr. Eris's presentations in California in the spring. And he starts by saying, well, everyone knows nicotine is addictive, right? And he walks through every government agencies, including Health Canada, nicotine is addictive. And he says, well, let's look at the research, because you point out to me one animal study where they managed to get a single animal addicted to nicotine.   Now we add 500 chemicals to cigarettes. Like it's just mind-blowing that you would allow any chemical to be added to cigarettes. So what are we addicted to?   Are we addicted to the chemicals? Like how is it that, you know, for every other substances, heroin, cocaine, anything else, sugar, you can get the animals addicted to it, but you can't get a single animal addicted to nicotine. And then he goes through the incredible health benefits of nicotine.   It's kind of like if you're going to be put out on a deserted island and you could pick two things that you could have for your health, you know, you're going to be on a deserted island, but we're going to give you two things to supplement your diet for health. You probably pick turmeric and nicotine. Like it's that crazy.   [Speaker 2] (16:08 - 16:33) So I want to jump in. I'm glad you brought that up. I wasn't going to go down that rabbit hole.   I said that everybody knows is addictive, but you're quite right. It's not. I'm an avid neurohacker, have been for many years.   That means that I take supplements and drugs that enhance my mental performance. And one of them is nicotine, which I've been using for years now. And I can tell you, I'm not addicted to it.   I regularly go off of it for weeks at a time. And I don't feel a darn thing.   [Speaker 1] (16:33 - 18:54) I've had the same experience, you know, because since I've learned about nicotine, I've tried on and again to use it for a while. And then I just, I'm just not reliable with it. And I, it's not like, oh, I didn't take my nicotine.   No, I dang, I wish it was addictive. So I'd be remember, I'd be reminded, oh, I'm trying to include this in my health protocol. So anyway, Thursday, they're going line by line on these amendments, the NHPPA.   So go to NHPPA.org. We've got a campaign. There's e-letters you can send out.   And when you're on that site, like it takes you to a specific page. You can change the e-letter. You can change the subject line.   You can add to the text. And the benefit of that is, is, you know, the assistant going through this line of emails. If the subject line changes and the text changes, they know somebody's put some thought into it.   You can also call your MPs. And I don't care if like, call the standing committee members, but also call your own MP and definitely the liberal and every liberal and NDP MP. And just say, I'm mad about this.   And you're going to lose my vote. Like if you've got a local liberal or NDP or Black Quebecois MP, or even conservative MP, like the conservatives have put in this amendment, you know, where it excludes products that have nicotine. Well, I think both the block and the conservatives, they just don't understand.   You're just creating a world of hurt we don't need. If you're concerned about nicotine, the real mischief, and it's in our discussion paper on this, like, so we've got a paper to educate you. The real mischief is, is we have a tobacco and vaping products act, which is meant to protect people, you know, including our vulnerable youths from tobacco and nicotine products.   Well, under that act, the minister can exempt some products from the application of this act. And the minister passed a regulation exempting any product that's licensed as a natural health product. We'll just take that, cancel that regulation, and they'll be subject to our normal Food and Drug Act stuff.   But they'll also, those vaping products will be subject to the tobacco and vaping products act and throw all the powers and penalties you want in there. If you don't think they're bad enough, I mean, they're pretty strict, but leave our natural products alone and don't pretend that's what this is about, so.   [Speaker 2] (18:54 - 19:10) Right. But now there is some urgency on this. They're going to be doing this debate on Thursday.   Yes. So people need to jump on this. So what's the, basically what is the latest hour at which people could get this information and these letters in, call their MPs?   [Speaker 1] (19:10 - 22:32) Okay. So I would say, you know, Thursday morning at, you know, eight o'clock Eastern time. So, and you can send more than one, like you can keep sending them.   And if you have multiple email addresses, use them, but send more than one. Don't think you, you know, sending one is enough. And, you know, call.   And like I say, if you have a local MP that's liberal or NDP or conservative or black or black, well, we've got them all. I mean, call and say, like, we've got the discussion paper. So if it's a conservative MP, say, Hey, you know, Stephen Ellis has put in this amendment.   It's, it's actually misguided. Like it's going to ruin things. Just pass the bill the way it's passed.   Like, you know, the solutions are all in our discussion paper. So it's just, I'm losing my faith in parliament also. You know, actually confession, I'd lost it long ago.   I think that us trying to get our access, like who, none of us ever said to anyone, let alone parliament, you have authority over my body. Because if you get to choose the only group of people that can't choose how they're going to prevent illness or treat illness or slaves, that's the only group of people was slaves and Canadians. Or maybe that is one group of people.   None of us ever gave anyone authority to limit us to how we could treat ourselves when are sick. You educate us all you want. If there's something dangerous out there, like, I mean, even approving the chemical drugs, even this whole drug model, this health Canada infrastructure, it shields the pharmaceutical companies from criminal negligence causing death and bodily harm under the criminal code.   Well, because this professional regulatory body has approved it. How can we be criminally liable when health Canada, the experts in it say, okay, no, abolish health Canada. And you see how many dangerous drugs are left on the market when these pharmaceutical board members are in prison for criminal negligence causing death or criminal negligence causing bodily harm.   And you see how many of these companies are left standing if we could actually sue them for negligence and assault and stuff like that with civil torts. So, but how can you, because this professional regulatory body, and that's a joke and a half, the whole drug model is just a fraud to protect intellectual property rights. But it's not for our safety.   There's nothing in the Food and Drug Act for our safety. But I mean, the whole purpose of health Canada is a fraud. It's to protect these pharmaceutical companies from criminal and civil liability because they've been approved by this authoritative regulatory body.   And that hurts Canadians. It hurts our health. But where does parliament get off saying we can't access treatments that health Canada hasn't approved of?   Because that's the world we live in already. They're just trying to get rid of all natural treatments. And it's a different show to talk about how the drug model is just there to protect intellectual property rights.   And you wanted this to be quick. So maybe I'll have to come on and talk about the drug model. It will shock people.   And you'll see it at the end. You'll go, oh yeah, health Canada's- Okay, well, there you go.   [Speaker 2] (22:32 - 22:57) We have to link to it. I'll give a link to that. And folks, there's going to be a link beneath this interview to the discussion paper.   There'll be a link to the page at nhppa.ca where you can take action on this and do. All right. Your MPs will listen to you because if they know you're not going to vote for them, if you let these amendments through and they hear from enough of us, it'll kill it.   And we'll save our natural health products. Sean, thank you so much for the hard work you're doing.   [Speaker 1] (22:57 - 23:09) Thanks for having me on. Well, I mean, I know you had to kind of like bend things to make this work. I really appreciate it.   And I appreciate everything that you're doing. And I'm just thankful that we're working together.   [Speaker 2] (23:09 - 23:15) Well, I'm going to borrow a phrase that our government liked to misuse for a long time there. We're all in this together.