(0:00 - 2:16) Today's trans agenda has convinced tens of thousands of people that they are not the gender they were born as, and if they only transition they will finally feel that they belong, that they fit in. And we hear constantly from the pro-trans movement that children who are not allowed to transition are at increased risk of suicide, a false narrative that is not borne up by the actual statistics, which in fact indicate that the opposite is true. Then there are those who come to regret their decision and detransition. We seldom hear from them because their stories are not covered by mainstream media, and, as incredible as it sounds, those who detransition are often accused of being transphobic and are silenced by those who once considered them as allies. Kellie-Lynn Pirie and Faith Groleau are two such women. They transitioned to a male identity, took hormones, underwent surgery, and lived for a time as men. But both of them later came to regret that decision and to finally become comfortable with who and what they really are—women. And both are dealing with the lasting effects of having transitioned. Even now, after detransitioning, both of them have deep voices and appear in some ways to be masculine. But at heart, they are, undeniably, women. So what happened? Why did these courageous women who are now telling their stories choose to follow the trans agenda? Their answers are at once different and the same. But it comes down to the fact that in today's world, transitioning has taken the place of real therapy. People who feel out of place are given a constant narrative by healthcare and mental health professionals that transitioning will fix all of their problems. But that narrative couldn't be further from the truth. Kellie-Lynn, Faith, thank you so much for coming into the studio today. (2:17 - 2:40) Thank you. Thank you for having us. Now, both of you at one point in your lives transitioned and then you made the choice to detransition. And so we're here today because I really wanted to find out what your thought processes were going through all of this. Now, first of all, at what age did you both transition? I was 37. I was about 15 when it started socially, and then 16, 17, and 18 as it started chemically. (2:40 - 4:57) So I wanted to know what was going through your minds at the time that you made the choice to transition? What societal pressures or personal struggles were you having that put you in that head space to feel that this was something that was going to, I don't know, make you more comfortable? Please explain it to us. And Kellie-Lynn, I want to start with you because you were much older when you transitioned. And obviously as an adult, you were able to take the time to really think about this, or at least I'm assuming you did. Perhaps I'm wrong. So if you please tell us where you were at at that point. I struggled with addiction. I came out of a background where my mother, when I was very young, chose to marry a convicted pedophile. He was involved with drugs and alcohol, which got back together with my dad. My dad was an alcoholic. So I learned that alcohol helps deal with feelings. And so a lot of the awkwardness, a lot of the discomfort with being an adult sexual being, I covered up with the alcohol. So when I got sober, I kind of crashed, decelerated into feelings, into being aware of people looking at me, into like I was a beautiful woman when I was younger. And I was really uncomfortable with that. I had a really hard time with social settings because it felt like the emotions of everyone around me was happening to me. So when I was living in a woman's support recovery, there would be up to 20 other women in the house. So what they experienced as me being incredibly controlling of them, I felt like a situation where everything was just out of control. If I'm reading this correctly, you were a very empathetic person and you were feeling everything they were feeling, which must've been overwhelming. Well, drinking, I never really learned to regulate my own emotions. Yes, it felt like really scary. So when I talked to my counselor, because I'd also seen men who were living their lives as women, as soon as I was like, there's this individual, he thinks he's a woman. Could this be what's going on for me? Well, my drug and alcohol counselor was at the beginning of the affirmation model. (4:58 - 5:40) So she simply affirmed, oh, of course, Kellie, any man would be incredibly uncomfortable living with 20 women. So that's the direction. And then I latched onto this idea that by living my life as a man, all of this awkward feeling stuff that I had been wrestling so hard with, it would simply resolve. Because the greatest gift of God in recovery is your feelings. The hardest thing you're ever going to learn to deal with to stay sober is your feelings. So it was like, fix. (5:41 - 5:54) And I had been almost a year in therapy, and I was so tired of therapy. And it was like, this is a fix that'll just fix it. And I fixated on the external application. (5:56 - 6:45) Faith, what was your experience? I was also sexualized when I was younger. I was abused by someone I shouldn't have been. In doing that before having any sort of feminine characteristics that really didn't make it desirable to have more. How old were you when this started? I don't actually know. I know that there was an instance, I remember myself when I was six. But it might have happened earlier than that. I don't know. There was an instance when I was seven, where I remember specifically telling him that's not going to happen again, you can't do that. And he listened. He tried again when I was eight, but not not very seriously. And then that never happened again from him. But even at school, on picture day, mom wanted me to wear dresses because she liked me looking pretty. (6:46 - 9:33) And one of the boys came up with a stick and tried to look under my skirt. And I donkey kicked the stick into his gonads. And the teacher actually got mad at me. And that was just kind of how the school was in general, because I was too physically violent. And I could hurt them a lot easier than I should have been able to. So I just stopped wearing dresses and really was not a huge fan of the femininity. And I also was just very naturally boyish. I liked playing in the dirt. I liked picking worms up and chasing the girls with it. You know, like I was one of the guys in that sense, when I was nine, I even told my mom, Hey, I think I was supposed to be born a boy. And she said, No, that's just a tomboy. You just get along with the boys better. That's, you know, that's normal. It's fine. I was like, Oh, okay, cool. And when I was about 15, after just kind of struggling through all of that, I had other mental health issues as well, because of the sexual abuse, because it wasn't really addressed. And around 15, I also found a show called I am jazz. And that was airing on TLC around nine. And that show features a young boy who gets transitioned basically at like two, and then onward into a little girl. And seeing that, especially with this kid being younger than I was, I was like, Oh, cool. So it's okay. Science accepts it, this is an option. And I came from a very religious background. And so I figured all of their pushback was just because it was their religion, and their faith that had nothing to do with it being science or not. And so I clung to the science. Because they're supposed to be evidence based, and I'm supposed to be able to depend on that factually. By about 16, I was given puberty blockers. By 17. I believe I was approved for top surgery by 18. I was given testosterone. And then because I was a specifically youth clinic that I was going to once I turned 18, I aged out of the system. So the doctors just kind of handed me off to somebody else and no longer followed up with me. I was deemed a successful transition in this clinic. And that was just kind of how they left it. The diagnosing physician did not know I had other underlying mental health conditions. This is per her own admission. I filed claims against the doctors. And in their responses, she even says, I was following the DSM five, but I didn't know that there were other mental health issues. So for her not to know either she didn't do a cognitive assessment properly, or she didn't have access to my medical medical records, one or the other, or both. She might not have had access to either. But I had physical health doctors who had access to my mental health diagnoses. So for her not to as a therapist or as a pediatrician, I don't really know how that works. (9:33 - 9:48) Um, but she didn't know that I had other problems. And so I was just kind of allowed to diagnose myself and was rushed through the system. And I was fine being trans. (9:49 - 10:49) And around 2020, I would have been 20 years old as well. COVID hit so the vials that I was getting the testosterone and they ran out of those. And so they ended up giving me a new version, which is androgel. And that's a topical version. It's in these little packets. And that was significantly more expensive. And at 18 1920, I didn't have enough money to cover $300 for a three month supply. So I only got one month supply and just kind of rationed it. And by 21, my father passed away 22, my mom's dad passed away. And so I was on antidepressants and testosterone and I just kind of didn't keep using them properly because I was between houses and doing a whole bunch of stuff. And so I couldn't keep up with medications consistently. So by 22, I was off of everything on my own. No doctoral care around 17 or 18. Actually, I had gotten birth control. And because of other physical health issues, I couldn't get estrogen. (10:50 - 12:24) But they let me have progesterone based birth control. And with that, the doctors told me, it shouldn't interfere with the testosterone, that should be fine. So the lady who was giving me my injections, who was also not the diagnosing physician, nor was it the person who prescribed the medication, it was a completely different doctor. She might not have even been a doctor. I think she was just like a nurse. But she was giving me my injections. And I asked her, I'm like, does the birth control basically do the same thing as the Lupron and the puberty blockers? Can I go off the puberty blockers? And she's like, I don't know. We can see what happens. Sure. Go off and see what happens. And so yeah, by 22, I was off of everything, but I was still living as a trans man. I was just slowing myself down because I didn't care enough about it. And then by, I believe, 23 or 24, no, those files came out this year. So around 24, I actually saw some information that really showed doctors don't know what they're doing. And in speaking with other trans people who do feel like it worked for them, I realized what they're feeling as dysphoria was not at all what I was dealing with. And so I was just completely misdiagnosed. I misdiagnosed myself. The doctors let me and affirmed that and then didn't follow up with me either on their own accord. They just left me to somebody else who also didn't follow up. So by 24, I started April of this year, detransitioning and coming back out as Faith and saying, whoops, my bad. But yeah. (12:24 - 15:09) Kellie, now Faith has told us her journey through this. I'd like to hear yours, but what I'm really wanting to hear is not so much the, I mean, as comfortable as you are describing the whole process, but what I really want to know is what was your mental state, your emotional state as you were going through this transitioning process? This will fix what I feel uncomfortable with. I don't know. Am I feeling awkward? Am I feeling odd? My social anxiety? When I'd show up to a support group for my addictions, I would deliberately show up five minutes late and leave five minutes early so I didn't have to deal with the people. But I understood that isolation and addiction is a really bad idea. So I needed to be hearing the stories of other people. I needed to be around other people, but I didn't know how to be social with other people. Like greeting you today, shaking your hand, saying hello, that would have been a huge emotional... I don't know how to do this, right? I have to say you've made amazing progress because I didn't sense anything wrong at all. You were very comfortable. And today I'm very comfortable with that. So into this idea that I would have been better off born a boy, I always understood as a girl. I didn't come from that background pathway. I was just like, boys have better. Was spoken the idea that, oh, you can live as a man and this will fix all of the discomfort you're feeling. Because I've been in a lot of women's only spaces that's part of... This was in the early 2000s, 2004, or 2002 to 2004. And at that time, by definition, a woman's support recovery was people who had been born girls. You couldn't at that time self-ID as a man couldn't self-ID into my sexual abuse trauma group. He couldn't self-ID into any of the social groups I was going to. So it was by definition women only. So there was this idea presented, especially after it started getting affirmed, that my awkwardness in those settings was because any man would feel uncomfortable around that many women. When I started talking, when I was in the journey after I'd had my hysterectomy, 2006, I started talking a little bit about, I miss the company of women. I actually miss those conversations. I miss being able to be around. And they're like, that's just internalized transphobia. (15:13 - 20:26) And can you imagine how the poor, well, they used a different term, but how the poor men on estrogen feel listening to you sitting here saying, I want to be in women's space, but I missed it. I really had really started to miss the company of women as a woman. And so when I was in the peer support groups at Vancouver Coast Health, it was very much, you have all this male privilege. How dare you sit here and talk about missing being in female spaces? You have no right to be there as a man. And imagine what the poor trans women listening to you are feeling right now, because they're desperately trying to get into these spaces and they're being rejected by these transphobic women. So, but before yourself, I mean, you've described some of what you were feeling, but when you went through the process and completed transitioning as far as you went with it, at that point in time, did you feel a sense of relief or were you already starting to suspect you might've made a mistake? The younger people call it a dopamine hit. So beginning to wear men's clothes and people changing the way they interact with me in the beginning felt really good. And there's also the social taboos that you're crossing. The first time, I had always had abnormally high levels of testosterone for a woman. So once I started injecting testosterone, within a year I had facial hair. Generally it takes three to five years. So I already had the bases of the facial hair there. So the first time a friend took and escorted me into a men's washroom to use the men's washroom rather than the woman's washroom. So there's all these dopamine hits and I didn't struggle with depression so much as I wallowed in it. So for someone who lived that, having this hyper-focus of the next blow, of the next step, can for a time, as long as you've got a next step, the depression I felt just kind of pushed to the side because I was hyper-focused on the next step. Dopamine hits were a break from the depression? Yes. And things to look forward to? Yes. What will be the next experience I'll get that hit from? Yes. Okay. Yeah. And then very much in the support groups, they're telling you how, Kelly this is what you say to your doctor to get what was back then called a carry letter. And that was a letter explaining why my ID was female and my appearance was male and I was standing in whatever situation trying to use my credit card. Right? So this is what you say to your doctor and you need to get your carry letter because that starts your time clock. And your time clock is how much time, excuse me, needs to pass to qualify for the next step. So at that time I needed six months from my carry letter to getting a referral to the gynecologist who was prescribing women testosterone. So from the date of my carry letter, when the carry letter was six months old, I went to the family doctor. This is what to say to the family doctor to get the family doctor to refer you to this surgeon who's going to do your hysterectomy, but he'll also start you on testosterone because under his protocols, you need to be on testosterone for X amount of months before he'll put you on his surgery list to have testosterone. Because of the sexual abuse, when I was 18 years old, I was dying of a, I had chlamydia, gonorrhea, and syphilis, and I had what was called a pelvic inflammatory disease. That took a year of my life to clear up. I was on and off. I was in the hospital. The antibiotics that was prescribed were so heavy, I was actually in the hospital. They had discussed whether or not they needed to do abdominal surgery or they were going to go the antibiotic route. They decided to go the antibiotic route first to see if they could clear up the infection. Eventually, it did. However, the damage meant that a reproductive system that is designed to be self-cleaning never self-cleaned correctly, so I had constant problems. So, I knew getting the hysterectomy, for whatever reason I got the hysterectomy, would remove all of the parts of that system that weren't working correctly, that were causing the constant problems. So, I was hyper-focused from the day I heard, I don't think anything would have stopped me on the process from the day I heard that I could get a hysterectomy by transitioning. Like, that was my goal. (20:29 - 21:39) So, after the hysterectomy was when the questions started coming in, what have I done? Into that, when I spoke them out loud, was this is what's called internalized transphobia. So, I've internalized the society's response to me being a woman who's living as a man. Because at that time, the name for someone like me was actually a female to male transsexual, or we were just starting with the whole transgender thing, and then the men were called a male to female. So, there was the recognition that my basic biology, I was born a girl, this assigned at birth is something that came along after I was no longer part of the process. But in the early 2000s, the basics of biology was still recognized and talked about openly. Marshall All right. Faith, what was your emotional mental state as you were going through transitioning? Faith I was suicidal. I was angry at my body, at what had happened to me, and at God. I was mad my parents didn't protect me. (21:41 - 24:00) The doctors actually weaponized my suicidal ideation. So, I went in suicidal one night and to the emergency room, and they thought it was because I was gender questioning. And so, they just rushed me into seeing this pediatrician who was gender affirming and all of this. But they never looked into why I was suicidal. I told them I was sexually abused, but they just kind of passed it off as, oh, well, that just seems to be a commonality now. They didn't address it. They knew I had a different therapist who was dealing with other mental health issues, but they just left that as a separate issue. They never thought that they were ever connected. They weaponized the fact I was suicidal and said to my mom, well, your kid wants these drugs. If we don't give them the drugs, they'll kill themselves. So, do you want a living daughter or a dead son? Right, like that's the final phrase everyone gets. Before we continue, now I myself fortunately never experienced sexual abuse growing up, but I've spoken to people who have, and what I've heard is a very constant theme that people who've been through that end up experiencing a great deal of self-loathing, which to my mind makes no sense at all because you were the victim. But is that what was causing your suicidal ideation that you felt this sense of self-loathing because you'd been abused? I believe so, yeah. So, for me, it was I was abused by my dad, and mom was in the house, but didn't know. I don't even think he knew he was doing it most of the time. And again, I was so young when it happened that even the small amount of memories I had, I thought I was dreaming. I thought I was faking it or something because they never talked about it. It was never discussed. They didn't seem at all aware of it. Even when they found out that I was self-harming, they didn't really understand why. After my dad left, I told my mom what had happened, but she was not prepared as a mother by society around her to deal with that because she looked at me and said, well, what do you want me to do about it? Because she didn't know the protocol and she didn't want to make it worse by making me relive it. And so it just kind of got left because I said, well, nothing, I don't care, whatever. Um, but I was like 12 when that happened. So of course I don't know what to do. (24:01 - 24:30) Um, and, and I was also told by an adult at one point, cause I threatened to call the police about it. He was like, well, go ahead. Who are they going to believe? You know, an adult or you? And that became my mentality of, I can't trust the police. No adult around me knows anything about it. And I was raised in a very religious home of, if you don't have your virginity, you're no longer pure. And so with that all kind of in conjunction for me, I was broken. (24:30 - 25:59) I was tainted. I was going to destroy whatever I touched. You know, I was completely better off gone. Um, so you blamed yourself for the abuse. Oh, very much. Very much. Yeah. Um, and that took a very long time to really realize I, it wasn't my fault. And like, it unfortunately took a therapist, um, to be able to really get that through my head. Uh, I, I was very fortunate to be able to reconcile with my dad. Like he, he actually apologized. And when he realized what he had done, um, I was able to see him again after like nine years and, um, he unprompted apologized and said, please forgive me. But if you can't, I get it as well. Like he was, he was extremely respectful in that sense and recognized what had happened. Um, but it was just the fact that neither parent really knew how to control themselves or the situation itself. And they weren't educated because I was born with a birth defect and that had somehow had a complication. I was about five or six, every doctor I went to and tried to tell them that they didn't believe me. So I also had physical pain. Every time I ate, tried to exercise with the other kids, I couldn't play sports, clothes didn't fit properly, male or female. Um, so it didn't matter what I did. I was just always uncomfortable and there was a different reason to blame and no adult believed me that I had a physical problem. So obviously it was mental. And if you get a psychiatrist to go digging around in your brain, they're going to find something. That's just how it is. (26:00 - 27:45) They can pathologize anything, right? And I had hit so many markers for just being a masculine girl, for getting along with boys since I was nine. Um, the fact that I took on a more masculine adult role rather than still being the little girl, like I didn't do that. Um, so they were just very able to take that whole whirlwind of emotions and turned it into, Oh, well it's cause you're trans. Obviously it's because you're supposed to be a boy. And even my distancing from my mother, I had someone say, well, that's actually very typical for young boys with their moms. They will have this disconnect with their mom. Whereas a girl will usually get closer or completely fight each other. Um, and so like everything I was experiencing was able to basically be passed off as this whole trans thing. It was just the fact that they couldn't identify what the dysphoria was. And they didn't realize that I wasn't suicidal because I was the other gender. I was suicidal because I didn't like my body or anything that had happened and didn't like the fact that, because that birth defect didn't, didn't get caught until I was 23. They didn't realize. So about 18 years, I was walking around with a third of my large intestine up in my chest while squishing my lung. So every time I ate, it would have to pass through and it would move my ribs. And I was just in pain. I couldn't breathe properly to do any exercising. And all these teachers are like, Oh, you're just faking. You're just being lazy. Obviously you're fine because you're young. You shouldn't be in pain. I don't know what you're talking about. And I was just because they weren't doctors. And the doctors that I kept going to said they didn't see anything wrong. So, um, I was just kind of forced to find a mental problem for all of the physical issues. (27:45 - 28:39) And the mental problem was being trans because I looked more like a guy. My, my abdomen sat more like a man's. Um, even my shoulders, actually, I realized this recently, my shoulders are actually wider than my hips, which is uncommon for women. Um, and so for that, I also looked more masculine to a lot of guys. And so straight men did not find me appealing. And that was also a huge thing for that. So what I'm hearing from both of you is that throughout the whole process leading up to the transition, through the transition, you were encountering medical professionals, psychological professionals who were ignoring the actual problem and continually affirming this idea of transitioning as the solution. Well, my childhood was reframed. I grew up in rural Canada, rural, small town USA. (28:39 - 30:01) So there were dogs, there were horses, there were cows, there were chickens, there were pigs, there was sports, um, there was playing with trucks, there was bicycling, there was all of these activities that when I was talking to a therapist or talking to support groups of all these people who'd lived in cities, they were like, you had such a typical boy childhood. So everything, I'm getting all of this external affirmation that my envy of boys is actually this feeling of being a boy. No, it's, it's a, it's a strong envy. I firmly believe boys were better off. I firmly believe men were safer. I firmly believe the man's life was an easier life to live, an easier path to walk. So I have all of this external validation saying that the sexual abuse I lived with, the depression I struggle with, these things are going to be better when I appear and I'm able to walk in my true authentic self. That just, there, there, there's something went wrong with the wiring. How do you feel about that now? I wrote a friend this summer an email. (30:02 - 32:20) And I was like, there is no feeling. I've been, I've stepped into this truth that I was born a girl. I am a woman. I've been waiting for this feeling to change. I've been waiting for this shift. I've been waiting for this moment where I will feel like a woman. And I didn't feel like a I envied men. The feeling I was having was envy of men. The feeling of relief I had was in not being sexualized. And I had been raped a year before I got sober by a friend. So I felt like I didn't know how as a beautiful woman to protect myself and being sober, that was even louder in my head. And no, I did not talk to any of the therapists or anyone, or even the psychiatrist who assessed me about that. Because that's not something you talk about. The peer support were like, don't even tell them about the sexual abuse. There's nothing on your records that they'll be able to access to find out that don't tell anyone you were sexually abused. Why not? Exactly. Because if I'm going there, because I have a mental health condition, they should be assessing how my life events are affecting my mental health. And yet in the peer support situation, we're told not to. So writing this email to my friend, I was like, I am a woman. There is no feeling. I simply am a woman. So, you know, my friend, am I crazy? Or have I finally got it? And you know, she wrote me back an email. I was like, you got it. There is no feeling. My friend had detransitioned some time ago. But I still have to ask, because I'm completely baffled by this, as to why your peer support group would advise you not to tell your therapist about the sexual abuse that so clearly is part of the issue. Oh, that's transphobic. (32:21 - 32:39) I'm sorry? You having been raped is transphobic. We shouldn't laugh. No, but I'm sorry. I'm left speechless here. You're trying to grapple with crazy. And you're having a totally sane response to crazy. (32:39 - 33:25) But you need to understand, I was surrounded by crazy. I was surrounded by a lot, at that time, there would have been nine to 10 men for every one woman in this peer support group. Most of them have experience, it's called autogynophilia. So they were in love with this idea of themselves as female. External affirmations, where they're called a miss, or she, or her, out in social settings. The first time they use a woman's restroom is an incredibly fetishized, euphoric event. (33:25 - 34:17) And all of these firsts of invading women's spaces for them is a centralized, sexualized experience. So my talking about having been sexually abused as a child, and does that affect my desire to live as a boy, is piercing their bubble. Well, who gives a crap? You're trying to understand crazy. So it is colitis interruptus. It is a moment of reality pushing against their fantasy that interrupts their fantasy. So the way that it was dealt with was, that's internalized transphobia. (34:18 - 34:31) You're right, I'm trying to understand crazy because my reaction is, that's too damn bad. You were a victim and you needed help for what you'd been through and they're denying it to you so that they can maintain their own fantasy illusion. Yeah, precisely. (34:31 - 35:46) Remember, some of them also were sexualized as a child. Yeah. Yes, I understand that. I realize that a lot of people had that experience, but that does not- Oh, I see you. That doesn't obviate the need for you to get the kind of treatment that you should have gotten. I got it. I got it. It doesn't excuse it. Under the previous, because I was 2004, I was at the beginning of what has become the affirmation model. Under the previous model, 80% of individuals who presented at the gender clinic were denied even wrong sex hormones. They were told, you have these other issues. You have severe depression. You have extreme anxiety. You have PTSD. You have been sexually traumatized as a child. You have all of these other issues. Let's take you and deal with all of these other issues. If after you've dealt with all of these other issues, you're still thinking this path is one that you want to walk on, then we'll look at that. (35:47 - 37:03) So what happened was a lot of these people who got over into this stream either never qualified or never came back to the transition stream. So if I'm hearing you correctly- So under the affirmation model now, they're telling people, don't talk about this, because it's the beginning of the model. So they're still supposed to, quote unquote, assess me psychologically. The psychiatric assessments I underwent were no longer assessments of my emotional state, because being assessed for my emotional state, I'm asked questions that discomfort me, because they're looking at how do I respond? Do I respond and say, no, I don't like a liver sandwich. Why did you buy me a liver sandwich? I told you I don't like liver. When you asked me what I wanted for lunch, I told you, no liver, no eggplant. Here it is, a liver sandwich with eggplant. Why did you do that? That is a rational response. Getting upset and going, you are evil. You are trying to kill me. You bought liver. I hate liver. Okay. That is an unacceptable reaction. So under the previous psychiatric assessment, they would assess a person's emotional stability. (37:04 - 38:07) So they would ask discomforting questions. Under the affirmation model, they would assess how I present it. So they're not asking discomforting questions. They're asking, what do I think? How do I feel? They're asking questions at the level of which we're having discourse here. This discourse that we're having is not assessing my psychological state. It's not discomforting me emotionally. So those changes were just starting to happen. So the people who had, because it's peer support, so these people have been in the process of transitioning for some time. So they're going, don't say this to the psychiatrist. Don't say this to the psychologist. Because under the old model, it would have meant I got pulled out. And they have a vested interest in individuals who appear psychologically stable being part of the process because I'm going to make their stats look better. (38:07 - 38:18) So if I'm understanding everything you've just told me correctly, what has happened since 2004, and I believe it's the ASM-5, correct? DSM-5. DSM-5. And it was updated shortly after that. (38:19 - 38:22) Yes. I don't remember exactly what year it was, but it wasn't long after that. It was just after I got in. (38:22 - 39:05) Right. Since then, transgenderism has replaced actual therapy. Yes, because the model now is, think of a six-year-old living in an apartment coming in and saying to you, I want to have a miniature pony. I want to have a miniature horse. So what you're going to say is, oh my goodness, your parents must hate horses that they're telling you you can't have a miniature horse. Because you're, as a therapist, going to affirm the child's right to have a miniature horse living in an apartment in Vancouver. (39:07 - 39:20) Because that is the kind thing to do. Cruelest thing I have ever done in my entire life, and I would do it again, is turning a convicted pedophile into the police. How is that cruel? That's justice. (39:22 - 40:01) Exactly. But understand, for him, he experienced really uncomfortable consequences. Just Be Kind is weaponizing people's empathy. It's weaponizing parents' empathy, it's weaponizing teachers' empathy, it's weaponizing doctors' empathy. It is weaponizing empathy of going, when this distressed child interacts with you professionally, comes into your circle, the kind thing to do is just to affirm. And no is not transphobic, and no is sometimes the kindest thing we say to a child. (40:02 - 40:19) I'm sorry, there is no justification or rationalization for dismissing the victimization of a child in order to protect the person who victimized them. That is horrific. But that's what they're doing. (40:19 - 40:33) And according to Lawyers Against Transphobia, that is transphobic. Yeah, well, they can call me transphobic all they want. So this whole idea of what is transphobia... Basically telling them they can't live in their delusion. (40:34 - 40:47) Exactly. That's it. And there also was a law passed in my province, I presume here as well, the doctor was no longer allowed to question your validity as a trans individual without losing their license. (40:48 - 41:23) And so because of that, any doctor who dare spoke out lost their license and was no longer accredited, and those who still remain accredited are the ones who are willing to butcher and mutilate these kids. Yeah, because Dr. Zucker was pro-monetario. He was the one who was like, we need to do watchful waiting because the vast majority of kids who experience a sense of brokenness, a sense of disconnect, a sense of extreme discomfort with being male or female, the process of puberty is a visceral experience that reconciles them to being in their body. (41:23 - 41:41) We need to let them go through puberty. After puberty, puberty separates the 20 to 30% who continue to feel this way from the 70 to 80% who reconcile. And they told lies and stripped him of his license. (41:41 - 42:04) He lost his job, his reputation, everything like that, and he won all of the lawsuits because they lied. Faith, we've heard from Kelly and what her emotional psychological experiences were after she transitioned. Now, if I was understanding correctly earlier, you never really fully transitioned because you became an adult and you ran out of money. (42:04 - 42:39) But as far as you went with it, when you were living as a man, what was your emotional and psychological state then? I actually evened out a lot. So estrogen makes you significantly more neurotic, especially as a woman, you're designed to be that way. With male hormones, having testosterone and having everything else suppressed, I was extremely amicable, completely didn't recognize danger as much, almost got into fights just because I was being an idiot. (42:39 - 43:00) I would not recognize those aggressive signs because testosterone is very much a brotherhood drug. It absolutely makes you just love everyone and you just want to make everyone feel good and make them happy because that's what you're there for. You're there to protect and to serve and to deliver whatever is needed. (43:00 - 43:06) If you're well-adjusted, man, yes. And you will do it to the ends of the earth. That's what that drug makes you do. (43:07 - 43:42) And I was surrounded by people who needed help and I was capable of helping them to the best of my abilities and so it didn't matter how I felt or what I wanted or what I needed, I was doing something, I was helping and that was great. Because I figured my, not even success, like my validity as a person was what I did for people, not just simply existing. And so the more I could do for people and as a man I was capable of doing more, I was better as a man for those people. (43:42 - 43:58) But not, if I may stick my neck out here, not necessarily because you had transitioned but because the transitioning took your focus off of yourself. They treated me like a guy. So I was raised in a very religious home and so girls were to be seen and not heard. (43:58 - 44:12) You wore dresses, especially at church, you're just quiet, you sit there, you don't get to question the Bible because that's not right, all of these things. And so I couldn't question the adults around me, I couldn't question the religion I was brought up with, couldn't question why God didn't protect me. I couldn't ask those questions. (44:13 - 44:33) And when I asked a therapist who was not religious, right, obviously God was not the answer there. And even if it was in her mind, as a therapist you're not supposed to disclose your own personal beliefs, you let the person come to it. So she wasn't supposed to involve that anyway, unless I asked her to, which was extremely professional, that's fine. (44:36 - 44:51) And in being treated differently in terms of being masculine, I was allowed to learn about cars. I was allowed to help my grandfather with landscaping. I was allowed to do a whole bunch of things that as a woman you just weren't allowed to do, like my mother never learned about cars from her dad. (44:52 - 45:19) She wasn't supposed to, it wasn't what you did. But I was also still very much able to connect musically and creatively in that sense, and I was almost brought in more amicably as a guy, or because I was presenting masculine. Um, I was also very androgynous anyway, so men, if I was binding my chest, didn't really have a problem with me being in their spaces. (45:19 - 45:34) I wasn't disruptive. I didn't go into anyone's space and say, I want this now, you're gonna do it for me. Like I wasn't like that as a man or a woman, and so it, I didn't come in and disturb anything, and so nobody really had a problem with me. (45:34 - 46:19) And even, um, I believe I have spoken with a few autogynephilic individuals, and they were willing to have discourse with me where they weren't willing to with other people, because I was willing to step into their delusion with them and say, sure, even if you are a woman, right, even if you think that way, it doesn't change what you were born as, and you can't just rush into it because you think that. And I actually got a few of them very mad at me when I said that, and then they would come back like a week later and be like, whoops, I'm sorry, I see you were trying to help, that was my bad. But that was because it didn't matter how I felt, like it had nothing to do with my feelings towards it, it was just factual evidence I was giving them. (46:20 - 46:44) And it was a matter of like, hey, I'm not even sure, you know, and I've been on this road for like seven, eight years, like don't, you can't rush that. Um, but yeah, I, now having the estrogen come back, I miss the testosterone, because I was so calm, like nothing really bothered me. And I was also willing to stand up for myself a lot better than I am now. (46:45 - 46:54) Like, I have to really force myself to, to deal with conflict. Because my natural inclination is just, oh, no, don't deal with it. I don't want to do it. (46:54 - 47:10) Um, but I've learned to really enjoy it when I have to. And like, even female or male, I didn't really have to get into fistfights or anything. Like, I was never a physical person, because I just, I thought too much about it. (47:10 - 47:18) So it was never, like, I never felt justified in hitting someone. Because my life was never in danger. They didn't hurt me as much as anybody else. (47:18 - 47:27) So it was, I was like, fine, so whatever. Um, so that also made me very helpful in certain situations. Because I wouldn't get angry the same way other people would. (47:28 - 47:36) I would never let myself justify that anger. It was just not allowed for me. Um, even now I have a very hard time getting angry at people who push my boundaries. (47:36 - 47:41) Because it's not an anger thing for me. It's just, hey, that's not cool. Don't, don't do that. (47:41 - 47:54) You know, that's not nice. Um, now I'm learning that I tolerate significantly more for myself than I would other people. Like, if somebody were to hurt a friend of mine, I'd immediately be up and going to deal with that. (47:54 - 48:03) If somebody hurts me though, I know my own tolerance. And I know I can take it. And I'm so willing to just be in that hellscape with them. (48:03 - 48:11) Because I care, you know. Because I know what it's like to be alone and not think you have anybody. And I don't like them feeling like that. (48:11 - 48:18) I didn't like it. So I try to endure whatever pain they're going through. And that was just always how I was. (48:19 - 48:26) Um, and that never really changed. It was, it was worse with the testosterone. I was much more willing to sit with people than I am now. (48:26 - 48:33) But even that, like, it's not a, that's not a huge difference. Because there's still the nurturing element there. That doesn't really shift. (48:33 - 48:40) It just shifts how you look at it. Like, now I look at them like they're kids. And like, oh, sweet, sorry, I have to protect you. (48:40 - 48:50) Right? Whereas when you're more masculine and when you have the testosterone going through you, it's more you're ready to kill someone. You know. And you have to really, really gauge that. (48:50 - 49:01) Yeah, it happens. But yeah, that was usually my thing. And like, I was able to transmute whatever anger I had towards myself into productivity. (49:02 - 49:11) So it never really hindered me in that way. Like, honestly, having the hormones now is worse. So I started puberty at like 16. (49:11 - 49:16) I was already going through it. And they gave me puberty blockers. They shouldn't have. (49:16 - 49:23) Because you're supposed to get that before you start puberty. Technically, you don't need to drop. But they gave it to me kind of in the middle. (49:24 - 49:40) So I started puberty, stopped it, went through menopause, ended up coming off of the puberty blockers, went out of menopause backwards. And then now I'm still finishing out puberty at 25. So my bones haven't fused properly or anything like that. (49:40 - 49:45) And I might have incontinence issues. And fertility is also a concern. But we don't know until I try having kids. (49:45 - 49:51) So that's just up in the air. And of course, they don't tell you that. Because they don't tell you it's the puberty blockers that'll do that. (49:52 - 49:57) Right. Yeah. Just like the reframing of life experiences. (49:58 - 50:12) So when I was bullied, because I... Everybody knew my mom was married to a pedophile, lived in small town, USA, blonde hair, blue eyes. So I was bullied a lot as a child. I never fought just this fight. (50:12 - 50:20) I never fought to win. I fought to survive. Whether I won or I lost, no bully ever wanted to fight with me again. (50:21 - 50:38) When I talked about that with the therapist, when I talked about that in the peer support groups, it's like, oh, that's how boys think. Yeah. No, that is how victimized children who know how dangerous it is to be isolated out of the herd. (50:38 - 50:45) That's how they think. You want to do whatever it takes to be able to remain safe in the herd. So I had my friend group. (50:45 - 50:57) Anybody bullied me or my friends, I was the one who stepped forward, fought the bullies. Ended the fights forever. And that was reframed as typical male behavior. (50:58 - 51:12) My dad came back into my life. I was 13 years old. He was like, you need to know how to... How do you check the oil in my truck? Uh, I don't know. (51:12 - 51:20) Okay. You know what? Everybody needs to know how to take care of their own vehicles. My dad taught me how to check the oil, how to change the brakes. (51:20 - 51:32) I took the heat. When I was 16 years old, he bought me a beater old car and we rebuilt everything. We changed the brakes, changed the calipers, changed the bearings. (51:32 - 51:45) We took the engine apart, rebuilt the entire engine. There is nothing on a car that I can't recognize. This is what this component is and this is what it does. (51:46 - 51:56) And that was reframed as, oh, he was affirming you as a male. That must have felt so good. No, you know what? He really tried really, really hard to affirm me as a girl. (51:56 - 52:04) He's like, I got three sisters just like you. You're gonna be fine. You're just a little different. (52:04 - 52:13) Has nothing to do with it. I've raised two children, a girl and a boy. My son, my kids were both very stereotypically masculine, stereotypically feminine. (52:14 - 52:25) But my son was the artistic actor, musician, had no interest in mechanics or hall repair, anything like that. It was my daughter who by the way has become an architect. She was interested in all that. (52:25 - 52:31) And so, I taught her because she wanted to know. What the heck did her gender have to do with it? Yeah, nothing. That's immature. (52:31 - 52:41) I hated home ec in seventh grade. And that was proof that it was boy. But you know what? A lot of the girls hated home ec because we're talking late 1970s. (52:41 - 52:57) It was like that whole change and thinking about. Well, because back then home ec class for girls came along with that message that you're supposed to be barefoot and pregnant and you know, it's that old joke, why do brides wear white? Because all appliances come in white. Oh, yeah. (52:57 - 52:59) Yeah. So, you're mad. God, there's that kind of thinking. (52:59 - 53:04) I was growing up then too. I'm 60. I was born in 1965. (53:05 - 53:26) So, I went through that mentality myself and I can remember rejecting those ideas very young myself thinking that this is BS, this is ridiculous to be treating people that way. But just to recap then, there was a positive to transitioning. For you Kelly, it was those dopamine hits that were the relief from the constant depression. (53:26 - 53:44) And for Faith, it was that the testosterone took your focus off of yourself. And so, you were able to basically just not focus on it. Okay, but now there's a question I really have to ask because this is something that you can uniquely answer that I certainly cannot because I've been a man my entire life. (53:44 - 53:53) I've been completely comfortable being a man. Both of you have experienced life as a woman and as a man. And as a man, of course, you do get accused of male privilege. (53:54 - 54:13) Does it exist? It's ridiculous. Not at all. Men and women, the way male privilege is framed is that being male gives you these privileges. (54:14 - 54:38) The problem is that simply putting women in power isn't going to fix the problem. The problem is a system where the rich get richer and need to get richer off of the income and the separation and the fighting between the poor. However, they're dividing us. (54:38 - 54:48) They're dividing us. When I was a long haul trucker for 10 years, I lived in regret. I still appeared masculine as in the flat deck specialized end of the industry. (54:49 - 54:59) 90% of my co-workers were male. I learned about the sacrifices men make. I learned how men think differently than I do. (55:00 - 55:37) I've been at the one job for around five years and I found out all my co-workers were terrified of me, my masculine co-workers, because they're like, we have never seen you even slightly upset, Ken. We've had conversations and we're like, don't piss off Kenneth, because when he loses it, he's really going to lose it. So I had never gotten in that masculine hierarchy thing where you just kind of get a little irritated with each other, because I didn't even understand how the hierarchy worked or that it was there. (55:38 - 55:53) I was just always even keel. So men think differently. What drives a man to make the sacrifices he makes, like the brotherhood bonding thing, is very different from what drives a woman. (55:53 - 56:30) So I was really understanding that my internal motivations for why I do the things I do, how I am in life, what I value is very different from what a man values. And that male privilege is a way of, they are guilting young men for being men and trying to teach them that being man is so wrong. The only way you could possibly become right and one of the righteous oppressors in this society is to be female. (56:31 - 56:55) That is, for European ancestry, boy, his only access to righteously oppressed is girl. And that's the, you are guilty of the color of your skin, you are guilty of being born male, you are guilty, you are guilty, you are guilty. Your only way to righteousness is womanhood. (56:55 - 57:04) And Faith, what was your experience? It's interesting. I was actually very aware of the dominance hierarchy. I was always aware of the pecking order, both with men and women. (57:05 - 57:20) I actually ended up ranking higher, well, naturally I rank higher with women because I was the only child and only girl. My mom was the oldest of her kids, so, like her siblings. And so we always butted heads. (57:21 - 57:41) But with men I was very aware of the fact that I was not the alpha, but I could act very well as a beta if I needed to. I was very good at stepping in as the second hand because I was usually more aware of what the man needed than his girlfriend was. And it's not in a weird sense, it was just I was able to see it easier because I thought very similarly to him. (57:41 - 57:53) And so I could see where he was trying to go and follow his roadmap. And she was sitting there like, what? And so I was just able to step in and be like, he needs this, go do that. I'll help here and do that. (57:53 - 58:15) And so I became very, very quickly integrated into almost any group I was in, whether it was a male or female alpha, I was able to step in as the second or third hand basically. And I could also see it very, very clearly. Actually, there was a fight that broke out across the street from my house. (58:17 - 58:24) I think that was when I was still identifying as male. I had just gotten home from something. So it was like after midnight. (58:25 - 58:38) And one of my neighbors that lives like kitty corner across from me, he's an older gentleman. He's a scrappy fellow. Like he still likes to fight when he gets to, loves it. (58:39 - 58:54) And so he was around and there were some homeless people who were mucking around. They had, we have a missions thrift store that's like across the street and they have donations right at the back. And so they were rifling through all of the donations and just making a mess of it. (58:54 - 59:05) And I heard him talking and the fact I could hear him from where I was meant he was being very loud. But I thought he was just joking because he does that. He'll just yell at you for fun. (59:06 - 59:19) And so it took me a minute to really realize, oh no, he's actually getting into a fight with this man. And so I went over and I was actually able to get them to both stop. And I was able to get the guy to leave the neighbor alone. (59:19 - 59:26) Because he wanted to fight and he kept getting offended. But I didn't care what the guy kept saying. I was like, okay, you're being ridiculous. (59:26 - 59:29) We actually live here. You don't. You're making a mess. (59:30 - 59:37) That's the only problem here. You either clean up the mess and you're fine or just leave. Like it, it's not complicated. (59:39 - 59:57) And so once they were able to kind of cool off a bit, then he left and it was fine. But just the, the fact that the alpha in that situation was so willing to fight because he was offended. He had extreme honor and he was like, you're not going to talk to me that way. (59:57 - 1:00:02) I'm not going to take that. I didn't care how people talk to me. It made no difference to me. (1:00:02 - 1:00:05) You can speak however you want. You can put your hands on me. That's different. (1:00:06 - 1:00:11) You know, that gives me fair game. But if you're not going to touch me, then you can leave. Like it, it was very simple to me. (1:00:11 - 1:00:30) And so I was able to kind of step in and help keep the peace a little bit so that nobody got their teeth knocked out, but it was, it was looking pretty bad at first, but like that was kind of how I was able to navigate everything. And the idea of male privilege is just, there's female privilege. There's male privilege. (1:00:30 - 1:00:57) I mean, females have more privilege at that point. Like nowadays it's gone the complete opposite way. And some of the most brilliant, willful, incredibly strong men I have known have either been to prison because society told them what they did was wrong, even though it was morally correct because they had drug problems that society did not help them with. (1:00:57 - 1:01:13) And so they had to detox there. They were in marriages that ruined them because they thought that till death do us part was the only option. I have probably seen more men cry in my life than I care to admit. (1:01:13 - 1:01:27) And that's because I'm one of the only biological women that bloody listens to them, you know? And it's like, cause their wives have all of these expectations. Kids need you to be a certain way. God forbid the mask slips because then they'll never tell you anything again. (1:01:27 - 1:01:45) And then you can't do your bloody job. And it's just, you can't even imagine as a woman what it's like, you know? And I just was able to have a small glimpse because I was able to live in there and they didn't mind me. And so they let their masks slip because I wasn't the girlfriend and I was strong enough as a man or a woman to take their pain. (1:01:46 - 1:01:55) And so I was able to sit with them in that. And I was able to see how their women were destroying them, you know? But I've also seen the other side where men will destroy women too. Like I've seen both. (1:01:56 - 1:02:00) I don't see any privilege either way. There are assholes for both genders. Yes. (1:02:00 - 1:02:05) It has nothing to do with what's between your legs at all. It's just your character and your merit. It's ridiculous. (1:02:05 - 1:02:26) And it depends on your own personal experience as well. Like if you experience only being the bottom of the barrel and never thinking you can be anything, you're either going to become tyrannical because you feel like you have to be, or you're just going to be submissive the rest of your life, you know? And you're always going to find somebody that you can be underneath. If you're used to being handed everything, you're going to expect that. (1:02:26 - 1:02:39) And if you don't get it, you feel entitled to it. You're going to be upset and say, well, where is it? Why are you not giving this to me? You know? And then you're going to be called an idiot because, well, you don't have any entitlement. What do you want about, you know? And then you get a very rude awakening that way. (1:02:40 - 1:02:52) But that doesn't have anything to do with your gender. People are treated differently because of their gender. You know? I was treated with a lot more respect as presenting male than I was presenting female. (1:02:52 - 1:03:03) But that's because most of the time people think that they can take advantage of women. And so they just do that. And goodness knows if a woman can fight back, it's a problem. (1:03:03 - 1:03:14) But you know, like that's the whole thing. It's not a matter of privilege. It's just as a woman, if you're not allowed in those spaces, you never see the man's mask slip and vice versa. (1:03:14 - 1:03:24) You'll never see why she's actually so neurotic as a man. You'll never understand that unless she's, for one, self-aware and for two, capable of communicating that. And same with the men. (1:03:24 - 1:03:39) Usually neither side can communicate properly. And we don't understand each other's... What drives your emotional responses is testosterone. What drives your experience of your emotional state is testosterone. (1:03:39 - 1:03:55) What drives my experience of my emotional state is estrogen. I went back on estrogen December 18th of 2023. I cried so much for the next six months. (1:03:56 - 1:04:17) I had a rash on the top and the bottom of my eyelids from the salt, from the tears. Because my body, my brain was readjusting to this emotional landscape where I felt feelings again. I sat in transition regret for 10 years. (1:04:17 - 1:04:35) There were periods of time I would go up to 11 months without injecting testosterone. I was terrified of what I would feel like under estrogen again. Convinced that I could not handle that emotional landscape. (1:04:36 - 1:04:50) Okay, now Faith, you twice used the term neuroticism to refer to that sort of natural estrogen female state. And I want to clarify this for the viewers because my own understanding of neuroticism, because some people think it means kind of crazy. Yeah, no. (1:04:51 - 1:05:06) No, what it means and I want you to confirm or deny my definition here is your susceptibility to negative emotion. Yeah, exactly. So women are programmed to bond to infant who cannot speak and can't really communicate other than screaming at you. (1:05:07 - 1:05:15) And so that's a very emotional bond that has nothing to do with your words. It has very little to do with body language. It's just a matter of it cries and you have to know what that means. (1:05:18 - 1:05:51) When you have that mentality with grown adults and you infantilize them and you try to nurture them like you're the mother, everyone takes advantage of that, whether they're male or female, because most people don't have that type of a connection because even their own mothers couldn't listen to them properly. Because once you get to a certain age where you can talk, then usually they don't listen anymore and they'll also tell you to deny it, right? But you are more sensitive to negative emotion because you are programmed to keep baby safe. Yes. (1:05:51 - 1:06:02) You're programmed to read baby's emotions and so you're naturally drawn to connect to something that you have to help look after. That is absolutely helpless. Yeah. (1:06:02 - 1:06:18) That is completely dependent on my ability to feel. I very seldom interject personal stories into my interviews, but I'm going to right here because I think it makes a point because we've been talking about male privilege, female privilege, all of that, stereotypical roles. I'm obviously a very masculine guy. (1:06:18 - 1:06:24) If you were to meet my wife, she's a very feminine woman. And yet you were just talking about our experience as raising children and we were the complete opposite. Yeah. (1:06:25 - 1:06:33) I loved my children as babies. I lost interest in them from the time they started to talk until they started to talk sense, which is. Yes. (1:06:34 - 1:06:39) So, once they hit 11, I got interested in them again. But my wife was very interested in that period. Yes. (1:06:40 - 1:06:47) Where I changed way more diapers than she did. It had nothing to do with our gender roles. It was just what about our kids attracted us. (1:06:47 - 1:06:54) I loved them as babies because babies were very simple. Yes. If they're crying, there's only four reasons. (1:06:55 - 1:07:01) They're hungry, they're sad, they need to be changed or they're sick. Yeah. That's it. (1:07:01 - 1:07:07) Very easy to understand. And so, I liked that. And then they start to talk and they just yammer away nonsense for the next 10 years. (1:07:07 - 1:07:20) So, I'm not interested. So, it was an interesting experience. And I think that there's a lot of this stereotypicalizing that we do in our society that we should get rid of and just let people be who they are. (1:07:21 - 1:07:30) And if we did that, I think there'd be a lot less of this transitioning crap. Because it would be, yes, women such as yourselves. Is driven by this cookie cutter. (1:07:32 - 1:07:53) If those who fall outside of the cookie cutter are obviously, they belong in this cookie cutter. But it's 80% of men are not typical in their masculinity. 80% of women are not typical in their femininity. (1:07:53 - 1:08:10) We need to deal with this concept that this 12-year-old boy is so different in his masculinity that we're going to strip him of his masculinity and say he is a feminine boy. That's a wrong thing. He's just a boy. (1:08:10 - 1:08:27) Maybe he's just a boy who's different. And honor his masculinity and say, yeah, you are 100% a masculine boy. And you're expressing your masculinity how you are wired by God to be male. (1:08:28 - 1:08:45) And a girl who has these interests, she's expressing her femininity in a way where she's wired by God to have experienced her femininity. And then it is influenced by culture. It's influenced by a whole bunch of other things that's going on around us. (1:08:46 - 1:09:00) My envy of boys was developed in an environment and then continued to be influenced by stuff that was going on around me in society. Yeah, completely. All right. (1:09:00 - 1:09:17) So Faith and Kellie, you've brought us up to the point where you had transitioned and you talked about your experiences there. So now I'd like to know what led to the decision to detransition. Kellie, could you start? What hit me with regret was a female friend of mine had met me after I had a beard. (1:09:18 - 1:09:24) And I'd known her for several years. We'd been involved. I was involved in trans advocacy. (1:09:24 - 1:09:35) It's not something I was proud of. It's something I did. And there was a day where I said, you know, not delicately, but basically, I find you attractive. (1:09:35 - 1:09:48) Would you like to date? And she was like, no, Kenneth. I'm interested in dating women right now. And I know that I just experienced you as a male. (1:09:49 - 1:10:05) And I realized that I was completely invisible to the people I was sexually attracted to at that time. I had done all of these things. I had sacrificed all the blood and body parts I could to the idol of gender. (1:10:06 - 1:10:14) I was left with fingers and toes. And at that time, they weren't chopping those off. Um, so I had no more dopamine hits to rush. (1:10:14 - 1:10:30) So the depression, the anxiety, the awareness of how I'm needing to create comfort to be in a social setting. That was all coming back to me because I had nothing to hyper focus on anymore. There were no more goals. (1:10:30 - 1:10:48) I was six years into the process. So I was at the beginning where the regret curve just does that. Um, and then I had this spoken into my life and I'm like, Frank, not only did I create this, I changed, did all these changes to my body. (1:10:48 - 1:11:00) They didn't fix my emotional, the things I struggle with. I'm never going to have sex again. And, um, it was a couple of months after that. (1:11:00 - 1:11:08) Um, I grappled with that on a Friday. I applied for several trucking jobs. The Monday I had three offers. (1:11:09 - 1:11:20) The next weekend I was in Calgary hopping into a truck and I went long haul. I just ran. Um, and then it was a very slow process. (1:11:21 - 1:11:31) COVID changed a lot. Um, ended up meeting with almost 11 months. I was not touched by another human being. (1:11:31 - 1:11:43) When I met with my oldest brother and, uh, lockdowns were being lifted and he gave me a hug, even under the influence of testosterone. I just balled. Um, that's, that's extremely unhealthy. (1:11:44 - 1:11:59) 11 months without contact with anyone. Well, if people wonder why the truckers did the freedom convoy, that was typical for my profession. That was a typical experience for a long haul truck driver in North America. (1:12:00 - 1:12:26) And people wonder why, when they said like 75% of those truckers had already had a one vax and we had seen so many people, young people dying and they didn't want to take a second vaccine because they're like, this is killing people. And we saw that. We actually saw that we met with people and like, where's Jojo? Jojo died. (1:12:26 - 1:12:53) He got his COVID vaccine. So yeah, they've had enough of the mandates and they showed up to protest and I got off on this on you, but followed up by that, I met with a friend of mine for dinner or for coffee. And I was talking about the crazy truck drivers live on two things, caffeine and conspiracy theories. (1:12:53 - 1:13:16) At 36 hours, if the caffeine won't keep you awake, talk radio and a good conspiracy theory well. So I was talking with my friend going, this Soji123, my Christian family, like they think this is insane evil. And I was talking to, and Aaron's like, it's worse. (1:13:17 - 1:13:27) It's way worse. I no longer work with youth who are transitioning because we're not even assessing them anymore. We're just affirming them. (1:13:27 - 1:13:43) And my friend was telling me of the experiences she's deep transition now. So she was having, and she's like, yeah, I can't even work in that model anymore. I'm going to lose my job because I'm thinking we should assess and deal with the other mental health issues that are going on. (1:13:43 - 1:14:06) Like maybe the fact that, you know, this young girl who's got rapid onset gender dysphoria was sexually abused two years ago in this situation, or these boys have been watching porn and have a porn addiction and they're struggling with coming out of that. And this is the fact that like, she's like, I wanted to talk about these other things with them. And I was getting called transphobic. (1:14:06 - 1:14:19) So I started applying for other jobs. And this was a person who had transitioned. And that's when I really started to understand that I regretted what I had done. (1:14:21 - 1:14:35) I needed to start telling people I regretted it because I could not support this cult that was going after, actually was going after other people's children. And they are doing that. That was their chant a year ago in Europe. (1:14:36 - 1:14:47) We're coming, we're coming, we're coming for your children next. And that was their chant at the pride parades all across Europe. So they're getting open and vocal about it. (1:14:48 - 1:15:07) And into that, I started attending church because I need a social connection. The people in my life who are accepting of me and were speaking the truth of male and female back into my life, were the Christians who've been praying for me and loving me. I started going to Bible study. (1:15:07 - 1:15:31) Once again, a whole bunch of people even having a six inch beard that were speaking the truth of woman back into my life that were calling me she, calling me Kelly, calling me female, just reaffirming me regardless of how I looked, regardless of where I was at. And speaking that truth back into my life. And the more that truth was spoke back into my life, the more I wanted to be around the type of people who are willing to speak that truth to me. (1:15:32 - 1:15:44) So I started going from Bible study, I started going to church. From church, I told my pastor, this is the path. My pastor was like, how can I help you in your path with Jesus? And we are so glad you're here. (1:15:45 - 1:15:56) And when I stood up on a sharing Sunday before my entire congregation and said, I need to let y'all know I was born a girl. They call that my day. I gave my testimony and people miss the day that I gave my testimony. (1:15:58 - 1:16:07) Everybody wanted me to sit at their table at the potluck after church. One of the elders came up and said, I'm so glad you're here. Our church has been blessed to have you here. (1:16:08 - 1:16:20) And this was at a stage where I didn't know what I was going to do. I just knew I needed to start speaking the truth of I was born a girl. That was being talked back into my life. (1:16:20 - 1:17:05) I needed to start talking it out. And then I had a day where I realized I couldn't simply sit and regret. I needed to find out, can I be a woman again? Can I take the estrogen? Can I shave off the beard? Can I put on women's clothes? Can I walk back into the role of who I am and be seen socially as female? Because one of the things, one of the doubts that is spoken so loudly by these men who are desperately trying to invade womanhood is that once I started testosterone, the best you'll ever get is to look like an ugly trans woman. (1:17:08 - 1:17:24) And only those who are extremely emotionally unstable and just crazy even think of detransitioning. So there was all of those doubts. And it's the weaponization of empathy. (1:17:24 - 1:17:53) Because the other thing is, I was seeing these men who are incredibly emotive. So there is that instinct to comfort the hurting boy that all women experience. And this is the struggle of women when dealing with these emotionally distressed males who are on estrogen and therefore able to emote incredibly, is this internal desire to just comfort this person. (1:17:56 - 1:18:27) The kindest thing sometimes is to leave the person in their distress. You know, people would make suggestions. Do you want to try this? Do you want to try this? Even in making the suggestions, they left me to grapple with, how do I find my way back to woman? So, Faith, what led you to detransition? I had already begun weaning myself off at about 22, just because I wasn't in a rush myself. (1:18:28 - 1:18:43) I was approved for top surgery by like 17, 18, and I just kind of let it expire. There were, well, 23, I had my birth defect fixed, finally. So that helped. (1:18:43 - 1:19:04) And in healing from that, I was online a lot, and there was some WPATH files that came out. And when those came out, I realized that right at the very top of the whole system, nobody knows what they're doing. And anything they think they know is based on some botched studies. (1:19:04 - 1:19:12) We haven't had clinical trials for this. These are the clinical trials. They're experimenting on the kids, and it's all funded by insurance. (1:19:13 - 1:19:40) That was how I got transitioned, was because my insurance paid for all of it. So, and these kids are getting top surgeries, and because the insurance will only cover a certain amount, they'll opt for no nipples, because they can't afford the rest of it. So if they detransition, and they're girls, women, left with no nipples, no breasts, some have hysterectomies, some get the phalluses made, all of these issues. (1:19:41 - 1:19:52) I've actually spoken with other trans individuals. And in doing so, I realized that what I was experiencing wasn't dysphoria. And so clearly, I probably wasn't trans. (1:19:52 - 1:20:06) It was something else. And once I realized that the doctors didn't know what they were doing, it just kind of made me go, oh, okay. And at first, I just kind of thought, maybe I am still trans. (1:20:06 - 1:20:13) But after talking with everybody, I realized, like, no. No, what I was dealing with had nothing to do with that. Wasn't the same at all. (1:20:14 - 1:20:28) Because I didn't have the same discomfort with my bottom half that everyone else seemed to. It didn't matter to me that much, which I also found really strange, actually. But it didn't affect me the same way. (1:20:28 - 1:20:39) And so I just kind of moved forward. Those files came out in March. And I think by April, I was going by faith again and slowly kind of reintegrating into femininity. (1:20:40 - 1:20:52) I think by September, I had filed claims with all of that. And then I got connected with Kelly Lynn and somebody at Our Duty Canada. And that's how we met. (1:20:53 - 1:21:02) And then Kellie-Lynn was introduced to some people out here. And so I was able to come out and speak. But yeah, that was a very quick, quick succession there. (1:21:02 - 1:21:11) But my family's been extremely supportive. My mom's sister is very familiar with situations like this. And so her family's really, really open. (1:21:11 - 1:21:21) They really don't care about your gender. My dad's youngest brother actually has been extremely integral to this. Because he loved me either way, didn't care whether I was male or female. (1:21:23 - 1:21:46) And I actually was able to get a tattoo with him and my cousin of our family crest, which I almost changed my last name. So to be able to keep the last name that I was so afraid of, and not only accept it again as my own, but integrate it and really appreciate that not everyone on that side was awful. To be able to accept that part of me was fantastic. (1:21:46 - 1:21:57) And I was actually able to see my dad and really connect with him again before he passed away. So that helped. And my uncle just kind of took me under his wing. (1:21:57 - 1:22:11) So I've been going around there a lot. And really, I've never been surrounded by so much love, honestly. Because I am no longer being told to be a certain way. (1:22:11 - 1:22:17) And even if I am, I'm at least confident in myself enough that it's like, no, no, I tried it. It doesn't change anything. I'm quite all right. (1:22:17 - 1:22:26) Thank you. You know, having that sort of real confidence. Like, I've never been so convicted in where I'm at. (1:22:27 - 1:22:36) And that really came from just realizing I wasn't born wrong. It wasn't God's fault. It was the human error that, you know, somebody made a bad choice. (1:22:36 - 1:22:45) I happened to be the collateral damage, unfortunately. But that wasn't because God couldn't protect me. It's because how free will works. (1:22:45 - 1:22:52) They're allowed to do what they want and shut God out if they want. You know, I should have been hurt worse. I should have been dead for 18 years. (1:22:52 - 1:23:05) The fact that I wasn't, I don't know what else to call that other than God. Um, so, and it wasn't science that helped me that time because they didn't know. So it really put things in perspective. (1:23:05 - 1:23:22) And I've actually been able to, um, even before I detransition, I was able to kind of set up a little personal business. Really, I've got some people that I just help, um, cut their grass or I look after pets and what have you, just small little jobs that I can do. And they're willing to pay me for it. (1:23:22 - 1:23:27) And that's been able to, to really keep me afloat. I basically work like I'm retired. It's fantastic. (1:23:28 - 1:23:45) Um, but yeah, I've been able to surround myself with an incredible group of people that don't treat me differently based on how I identify or what I look like. And so that was, um, very healing. It's been lovely to come into faith. (1:23:45 - 1:24:02) Kellie-Lynn, I want to thank you both for your courage and speaking with such incredible honesty. I hope that this interview is going to be put in front of some people who are considering transitioning. And as we said early on in the interview, for some people, maybe it is the right choice. (1:24:03 - 1:24:29) But as you made reference to Kelly Lynn for about 70% of them, no, it's not. They end up regretting it. So what would be your final thoughts for anybody out there who's watching who is considering transitioning? What would you say to them? Kelly Lynn, would you start please? Read what J.K. Rawlings actually wrote that got her labeled an extreme transphobic and a TERF. (1:24:30 - 1:24:54) When I read what she had actually written, what she had written was very compassionate. And she, she said, no, she said, men do not belong in women's spaces, regardless of whether they have a gender identity and present as women or not. Women are entitled to women's only spaces and sports. (1:24:54 - 1:25:17) And the extreme to which people are hating on her for saying no was out of proportion with how gently and how compassionately she said no. Read the science. Find out for yourself what the actual state of the research is. (1:25:18 - 1:25:33) Learn about research methodology. What makes a research study good? What makes it poor? So that you can make an informed decision regarding what you're hearing. So that you can recognize the truth from the obfuscation. (1:25:33 - 1:25:56) Obfuscation. WPATH, the World Professional Association of Trans Health Providers, has known for decades, decades, that detransitioning is far higher than the rate at which they report it. And under their old reporting styles, they counted suicide as a positive outcome. (1:25:57 - 1:26:10) Thank you. Faith? You're not born wrong. People will love you no matter who or what you are. (1:26:11 - 1:26:36) And if transitioning is the right thing, you don't have to rush into it because you'll still feel that way in 50 years. Please don't rush and make sure you have a good doctor who has your full best interest at heart. Just find things you enjoy as a person. (1:26:37 - 1:26:44) And make sure that you are educated. Sometimes have to be more educated than the doctors. And that's okay. (1:26:45 - 1:26:53) And you can say no. You can absolutely say no. And thank you. (1:26:53 - 1:26:59) You're not born wrong. Ladies, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you.