Will Dove  00:00 The Emergency Measures Act in Canada was passed under the Liberal government of Pierre Trudeau in 1988. Since its enactment, the EMA has been used only once by his son, Justin Trudeau, to shut down the freedom convoy. The Act authorizes the Government of Canada to take extraordinary temporary measures in response to urgent and critical situations that cannot be effectively dealt with under other laws. In cases of public welfare or public order emergencies confined to one province, the Act cannot be used if the provincial cabinet indicates that the situation is within its capacity to handle. Which means that Justin Trudeau needed the cooperation of Doug Ford of the Ontario government, who claimed that the province did not have the capacity to handle the peaceful protest in Ottawa. And he needed to find scapegoats in another province. Those scapegoats were Jerry Morin, Anthony Olienick, Chris Carbert, and Chris Lysak, collectively known as the Coutts 4, named after the truckers demonstration of the Coutts border crossing in Alberta.   Will Dove  01:18 And the timing of their arrest and accusations against them was very convenient for Justin. The RCMP at the behest of Trudeau's Government started an undercover operation during the Coutts protest. They claimed that on February 10th, protester Anthony Olienick informed two undercover female police officers that he was expecting a delivery, which the officers understood to be a bag of firearms, although no such statement was made by Olienick. Just after midnight, on February 14th, the RCMP executed a search warrant against the four men under charges of conspiring to murder a police officer. Despite the fact that prior to their subsequent arrest, only two of the men knew each other, and no such statements were made by any of the four men. One of the four men was arrested on his way to work some four hundred kilometers from the protest taking place at Coutts. The next day, on February 15th of 2022, Justin Trudeau implemented the Emergency Measures Act to shut down the Freedom Convoy and other truckers' protests across Canada.   Will Dove  02:34 Gord MaGill is a Canadian trucker, writer, podcaster and commentator with 27 years on the road in four different countries. He regularly contributes to Newsweek, American Campus, Compact and numerous other publications, including his own Autonomous Truck(er)s substack, where he also hosts the Voice of GO(r)D podcast. Gord has kept close tabs on the Coutts 4 over the past two years. And he joins me today to bring us the truth, the whole truth that our government has tried to suppress and mainstream media has perverted to accommodate the government narrative.   Will Dove  03:15 What you will hear in this extensive interview is the real reason Trudeau enacted the EMA, the gross miscarriage of justice to which these four men had been subjected, and the continued threat to our rights and freedoms that will almost certainly occur again, if Trudeau's Government is allowed to get away with their illegal actions.   Will Dove  03:44 Gord, thank you so much for taking your time for this interview. I know it's late in the evening where you are. So your time is very much appreciated to give people the truth on what's going on with the Coutts 4.   Gord Magill  03:56 Well, hey, Mr. Dove. Thanks for having me, sir. I'm always happy to discuss this case, given the ramifications within it that are not considered by nearly enough people and just how important they are.   Will Dove  04:10 And you're absolutely right. I think this is absolutely the worst miscarriage of justice in Canadian history.   Gord Magill  04:17 It's up there for sure.   Will Dove  04:18 Yes. So the first thing I like to do Gord because you have been intimately familiar with all of this, and there's been very little accurate reporting on this. I'd like to start with a timeline of this. Let's just start with the beginning of the Coutts convoy. Who started that? At what point in time do they arrive at the border?   Gord Magill  04:38 Right, so as everybody knows, the freedom convoy, was this decentralized and spontaneously organized (if that's even the right word), expression of revolt against Justin Trudeau and the vindictive mandates and the sort of wider COVID regime that had sunk Canadian society, much like the rest of the world, for the better part of 2021, 2022 and 2020. And a lot of people knew that the freedom convoy truckers were heading to Ottawa. But not everybody could go. And certain individuals started their own protests at different locations. Very famously at the Ambassador Bridge between Windsor, Ontario and Detroit, Michigan, Emerson, Manitoba, and Pembina, North Dakota, Coutts, Alberta and Sweet Grass, Montana. And I think there was a couple of other smaller ones scattered across the country. But those who could not make it to Ottawa from Alberta began to organize and hang out at the border crossing at Coutts, round at about the same time as the convoy was heading towards Ottawa. So this would have been very late January.   Will Dove  06:13 Right. And as you and I were discussing beforehand, neither was able to actually go to Coutts, because you're actually quite a distance away, though you have in your capacity as a trucker to cross the border there. Myself, because I was trying very hard to find a way to get to Ottawa, which was a very frustrating process, because there's just no way we could fly, my producer and I ended up having to drive. So there's been a lot of misinformation, confusion about what actually happened at Coutts. And the first thing I'd like to clear up is the accusations that they blocked the border crossing. Please give us a truth on that.   Gord Magill  06:48 Yes, the Coutts protest site actually blocked the border off. As far as I know, from speaking with everybody that was involved there, including a gentleman who came to be Tamara Lich and Chris Barber. He wasn't elected to this, he just sort of put his best foot forward, gentleman by the name of Marco Van Huigenbos. And there was always a lane open. So they didn't completely block the border off. They didn't completely block the highway. And it was always like one lane open, trucks were coming and going, people could move. The actual border closure, such as there was one was further north at another community called Milk River, where the RCMP had the entire road blocked off. So the only 100% closure of the road going over the border at Coutts was at the hands of the RCMP and not the protesters.   Will Dove  07:48 Right. And just as what happened in Ottawa when I was there, the truckers were accused of blocking off roads, they never blocked off roads, the police blocked off an awful lot of roads. But the truckers didn't.   Gord Magill  07:59 That's true. Yeah, when the truckers first came to Ottawa, they always left an emergency lane for emergency vehicles to get past. They never completely blocked off a near road. They always stayed close to the curb. And all these concrete barricades that showed up throughout downtown Ottawa, ends of the City of Ottawa government and Ottawa police service, the freedom convoy did not put up a single one of those concrete barricades.   Will Dove  08:28 Right. So let's talk about the Coutts demonstration itself. I wasn't there. You weren't there. But we've spoken to people who were, it was by all accounts extremely peaceful. The protesters were cooperating with the police. There were no issues whatsoever that I've been aware of, anything you've heard of.   Gord Magill  08:48 No, not at all. Much like every other protest site. There were people doing laps, driving back and forth, waving flags, honking horns. The protests such as there was one was sort of centered on this bar and Coutts, I think it was called Smugglers Inn. And people camped out, people brought travel trailers, and RVs, and trucks and stayed on various people's property and within the village of Coutts. I mean, Coutts is a village, it's not a very big town. To call it a town is probably even a misnomer. And it was totally peaceful. One of the gentleman who was one of the four accused, the Coutts 4, the biggest thing that he did at Coutts was to drive a country singer down there to perform for the assembled protesters. So I mean, if providing transportation services to a musician to a protest site is a crime, then I guess he's guilty of that.   Will Dove  10:03 Right. Alright, so let's talk about the Coutts 4, that's Jerry Morin, Chris Lysak, Chris Carbert, and...   Gord Magill  10:11 Tony Olienick   Will Dove  10:13 Sorry, Tony Olienick, thank you. His name has escaped me there. And the really important thing I want to establish before we even talk about the arrests and the accusations against them is, these guys were supposedly conspiring together to murder police officers. But in actual fact, only two of them even knew each other prior to the arrest.   Gord Magill  10:39 Yeah, that's true. Only two of the gentlemen had anything comprising a long-term relationship, Chris Lysak and Chris Carbert are both from Lethbridge, Alberta. They've been friends for a very long time. Jerry Morin and Tony Olienick didn't really know each other beforehand. These guys might have bumped into each other at other sort of freedom-related events prior to the ordeal. Again, the only of the four of them who had a long term substantial relationship prior to Coutts were the two Chris's.   Will Dove  11:19 Right. So before we get into the arrest, the timing of things, the supposed evidence against them. I think we should talk about why this was done and not the official reasons that was reported in the mainstream media. But the reason that you and I knew it was done, and it was because Trudeau need a justification for the Emergency Measures Act, which had to be a national emergency, which threaten national security. And if all he did was focus on what was going on in Ottawa, he didn't have that. And I find the timing of this, it just confirms all of this. I believe it's February 10th, the RCMP got a search warrant. Shortly after midnight in February 14th, the arrests began. And those weren't all in the same place at the same time, because these men, were already established didn't even know each other. And then, immediately after February 15th, Trudeau enacts the EMA and shuts everything down.   Gord Magill  12:15 Some minor corrections.   Will Dove  12:16 If I got something wrong there, please do correct me.   Gord Magill  12:20 So what happened with Coutts is that there was a number of different things happened there. So there was undercover officers casing the joint. And I want to make sure I have all of this correct myself. But I believe that due to maximally negative interpretations of notes that the undercover officers had taken, a wiretap was obtained on several of the men's phones and communication devices on the 11th. And the warrant that they got was executed on the February 14th. Of those wiretaps there was no evidence being used by the Crown right now, that came downstream of those wiretaps, that nobody said anything bad. There was nothing illegal being discussed. So three days of wiretaps, no evidence, the evidence is being used is Tony Olienick's Instagram videos which are publicly available and are still online, where he walks around the site, talks into the news on fallen, describes for people what's happening, says very innocuous things like, "Wow, I wish the cops would put those rifles down and come and have coffee with us." I think the most nasty thing is he might have dropped an F-bomb. And I think maybe insinuated that the police were working for communists, which is a debatable observation.   Will Dove  14:03 Yeah, part of the criminal accusation.   Gord Magill  14:04 Yeah, as far as the evidence goes, there seems to be very little. And as we know, today is March 27th. And seven weeks ago almost, February 6, Chris Lysak and Jerry Morin, were led out, they were released on plea deals. And the key here that people should understand is that one of the men were arrested over the evening of February 13th. And then the next day on the 14th, Jerry Morin was arrested in the morning of the 14th, like four hundred or five hundred kilometers away from Coutts, on his way to work, some conspiracy to do anything given he was on his way to work.   Will Dove  14:05 Four hundred kilometers away.   Gord Magill  14:07 Yeah, exactly. And Jerry Morin never had any guns at Coutts. They were all locked up in his house, and the cops didn't get them until they executed the search warrant on his home. Interesting how though that became evidence towards this conspiracy charge, given that he left home four hundred kilometers away. Anyway, there is no evidence. And Chris Lysak and Jerry Morin, were led out on plea deals on charges that were not of any of the original charges they were given. So Lysak was led out on essentially, in Canada, there's a lot of regulations on owning and transporting a pistol. They got Chris Lysak to plead guilty on having a pistol outside of the allowable permit. So he was basically in violation of a permit, which is what? Couple hundred bucks? It's not what anybody would consider a crime.   Will Dove  15:54 When which I can tell you from knowing a number of gun owners in Canada happens all the time.   Gord Magill  15:59 Exactly. And that Jerry Morin, they took advantage of Mr. Morin, he was kept in a gang unit in Calgary, his wife was denied access to visit him for 19 months of his incarceration. He had several periods of solitary confinement, and they put something in front of them. And he's in basically said, "Sign this and you're out." And they got him to sign off on essentially a fantasy. And there's nothing true to it. It's the definition of a false confession. And that fantasy had nothing to do, again, nothing to do with the original suite of charges that were leveled against him. So the thing that the media, and many people are ignoring is like, "Oh, well, they pled out." They didn't plead to anything that they were originally charged was, including the charges of conspiracy to commit murder.   Will Dove  17:04 In fact, the Justice dropped those.   Gord Magill  17:06 Exactly. They were dropped or stayed. But, you would think that those were the most heinous things. And that's exactly what the media blasted out to everybody at the beginning of this situation. You would think that the media and the general public would have some questions of the Crown like, you made these charges against these men. These charges were part of what Trudeau used as legitimation, for invoking the Emergencies Act to say, we have this young, Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino is on record saying, there's a hardened cell of individuals that are going to die for the cause. They're going to murder police officers, they want to overthrow the government. And they're in Alberta. And we have all this evidence. And now magically, all that evidence disappears and all of the charges. You would think the media would be on top of that, asking questions about what happened to all these claims you made and why are they gone now? But, the media being purchased stenographers of the Trudeau regime have not been forthcoming with these questions.   Will Dove  18:23 Yes, at a cost of over $2 billion a year. I'm sure most of my viewers know, these men were innocent. There was never any plan to kill police officers. Most of the guns that were seen in the pictures that were done in mainstream media didn't even belong to them.   Gord Magill  18:42 That's correct.   Will Dove  18:43 So, Gord, why do you think they singled out these four men? And none of them had criminal records. I think one of them had a drunk driving charge somewhere in his background. That was it. None of them had a criminal record.   Gord Magill  18:55 Right. Because they need a bogeyman, they needed legitimation. And that bears out in the process of the Public Order Emergency Commission, and the ruling, which came from Justice Rouleau. There was some interesting timing without to write, like these four guys pre-trial motions and hearings, did not even begin until after the Public Order Emergency Commission was complete. And until after Justice Rouleau, I don't know his ruling later came later, but the inquest was done before their pre-trial motions began.   Gord Magill  19:36 Now, Justice Rouleau, if you read his two thousand plus page report, references all of this information he was getting from the government about these people in Alberta who are a hardened cell and they were going to be murdering police officers and Rouleau said he reluctantly allowed that Trudeau was within his rights to invoke the Act. Well, that was based in part on all this info from Coutts. Except Justice Rouleau could not have known if any of that was true, because the trial had not yet taken place, right?   Will Dove  20:22 Right.   Gord Magill  20:23 And a lot of this is downstream as well of information the government got from this sort of social justice activist group called the Canadian Anti-Hate Network, who are spinning lies about numerous actors, either within the freedom convoy are tangentially related to it or just regular old Canadians who are also protesting and showing solidarity with it. And interestingly enough, some of that evidence, some of the things that Canadian Anti-Hate Network were saying have been disproven. Documents were obtained under a Freedom of Information, protection of privacy for a FOIP Act request in Canada. In the US, they'll be called FOIA. And in those documents, it's shown that a number of things that the Canadian Anti-Hate Network were saying about people who were connected to Coutts, either only extremely tenuously, or by the shrieking of these same activists without any evidence were false, right? And it was proven. The RCMP, CSIS, other actors within the Canadian intelligence and security communities had refuted these claims by the Canadian Anti-Hate Network. And because there was this one little flag seen on some guys vast, they immediately made this tenuous connection between these people being accused by CHN of trying to overthrow the government, and then the four guys at Coutts. And because the government repeated all these stuff, they had erected a straw men, a scarecrow, a boogeyman, whatever you want to call it, and now the government had to deliver on these terrorists that were going to overthrow the government. They set it, so they needed to have it. So these four guys became stand ins for the government's propaganda campaign, against its own citizens to keep them in fear about something which did not, in fact, exist.   Will Dove  22:36 Right. And as I said earlier in the interview, this was justification to call this a national emergency so that he could enact the EMA. And the badge that you referred to a flag was of Diagolon, which was created by Jeremy MacKenzie, the raging dissident as a joke. And folks, you can see my interview with Jeremy on that. And the kind of parts persecution, he suffered 10 weeks in prison, being debagged, he can't renew his mortgage now. And that was a joke.   Gord Magill  23:03 I wrote articles as a support of Jeremy.   Will Dove  23:06 Right. And you can see the videos of Jeremy and his friends just laughing their asses off at the news reporting that Diagolon is some sort of terrorist organization. But once again, the government and the media spun this as two of these men being associated with Diagolon, because they had patches on their basket, one guy had a flag in his yard. And in fact, when I interviewed Jeremy, he said he'd only ever met one of these guys, and only very briefly.   Gord Magill  23:37 That's correct. Well, like I say, they had to regardless of Diagolon, the bigger picture here is that the government needed a bad guy. And in order to get away with what they did, with the invocation of the Emergency Measures Act, which is a couple of years away from being total martial law, they had to have a scapegoat, they had to have a bad guy. And these four guys became the bad guy. And that is why Tony Olienick and Chris Carbert are still incarcerated and still going through this kangaroo court sham trial. Because the government like cried Uncle. Early February, council for Jerry Morin and Chris Lysak were launching a charter application to force the Crown to show their cards.   Gord Magill  24:37 One of the things the Crown has been doing, and not just with the Coutts guys, with Tamara Lich and Chris Barber, with all the dozens and hundreds of people who are still facing charges, who are still going through the court system, having been charged with like mischief or intimidation or failing to believe, follow the police order. All this garbage downstream of the convoy, that the Crown does not deliver the documents necessary, right? The disclosure, and it's a delaying tactic, we've seen that with Coutts. We've seen all these guys. And so what's happened is that because of this disclosure, there are failure to disclosure that just keeps going on and on and on. And Lysak and Morin's lawyers said, "We want disclosure, before we go to trial, you guys have been farting around, we're applying for this charter thing, put up or shut up." And the Crown, realizing they had nothing, offered these guys these plea deals. That's why they're out.   Gord Magill  25:49 Tony Olienick, I think he didn't get the same thing, because he was in between lawyers when this went down at the beginning of February and pre-trial hearings resumed. Why Chris Carbert didn't get the same offer? I think is because in order to keep the conspiracy charges against Tony Olienick, they had to have more than one person, right? I've been in discussion with certain people very close to the case. I'm in the United States, the publication bans don't apply to me. And I can tell you that they got nothing on Chris Carbert, nothing at all. And the only reason he's still in jail today is because the Crown is building their case against Tony Olienick, who they also have very little against, but they've got more in air quotes on Tony than they do on Chris, and they need somebody else to carry the conspiracy charges. And that's why it's still going on.   Will Dove  26:51 And what is it that they claim they have on Tony?   Gord Magill  26:54 They are taking a maximally negative interpretation of social media posting. A maximally negative interpretation of notes or things he may or may not have said to undercover officers. And there's a possibility of entrapment going on here. And then with the case of Carbert, there's evidence tampering. The man's phones were confiscated and it took until very recently, like, a few weeks ago, for Tony Olienick and Chris Carbert to get their phones back. Chris Carbert had his phone sent in and had someone, tried to get all the info out of it. And the people who searched his phone are like, "There's a bunch of things missing. There's evidence like people have already broke into it." The RCMP and the Crown, are now facing evidence, or they're going to be facing evidence tampering accusations in court for what they did to Carbert's phone. They've got nothing, they literally have nothing, and they're trying to make something out of nothing. And it's all a disgrace and a massive miscarriage of justice.   Will Dove  28:12 Indeed it is. As far as I know, Tony's trials now had been delayed until May 27th. Now you explain he was switching lawyers which caused a bit of a problem. I have no information on Chris Carbert on when he's going to be going to trial. Do you know?   Gord Magill  28:27 I'm not sure. But it'll be in the same ballpark as Tony, it will be May, that far.   Will Dove  28:34 Now, something that we haven't discussed yet in which you as an American might not know about.   Gord Magill  28:38 I'm not American. I am Canadian. I moved here several years ago.   Will Dove  28:43 Okay, sorry. I missed that when we were talking.   Gord Magill  28:46 No problem. I'm spiritually Appalachian American. Until such time that there's some significant change in the management back home, and the spirit that what's reigns supreme in Canada.   Will Dove  29:04 That's understandable. So then you would know this, in Canada, the maximum amount of time you're supposed to have to wait for a trial is 18 months.   Gord Magill  29:17 Under the Jordan rule is 18 months for a Provincial Court. And it's 34 a federal, so a few months back, there was some discussion, there was speculation I should say about the fact that Crown might be dragging it out to the Jordan rule 30 month maximum, so that they could get a stay on the charges and wash their hands then walk away. The man wouldn't get any innocence. Nothing would be found. They would get out of jail, but then the government could just walk away. From what I understand, the justice overseeing trial has said no, we're not letting this run to the Jordan rule. We're gonna get it done. We're moving forward. So I think his name is Justice Labrenz is aware of that. And I think in his heart does not want to let the Crown get away with that. So this is good.   Will Dove  30:21 Okay, so let's get back a little bit to their incarceration. You mentioned earlier that two of them were held in solitary confinement, and we're not talking for a few days here. But this was a total of months. I believe in both cases.   Gord Magill  30:32 Yeah. So Jerry Morin and Tony Olienick were both held in solitary, by their estimates in the numbers they've been keeping the records, they've been keeping themselves, between 70 and 80 days each for different stretches. Now, solitary confinement, by most modern Western nation states is considered a form of torture, and something that's reserved for either really hardened criminals, people who need to be kept away from the rest of the prison population, so they don't get done. And then there's usually a very narrow range of excuses by which you would keep a prisoner in solitary. Jerry Morin and Tony Olienick had never face trial, had never been found guilty of anything, had been denied bill yet were still kept in solitary confinement. I'm sorry, Canada, that's a problem. If you're keeping prisoners in solitary confinement before they've even faced trial, there's something wrong with your prisons. And that means there's something wrong with this case. If that level of punishment was meted out to people who were being kept in remand pre-trial. Nobody knows if they're guilty or not. That's disgusting. This behavior, not befitting a modern Western nation state. And again, the media are not talking about that, because if the media talked about it, they would have to talk about, you remember Omar Khadr?   Will Dove  31:28 Yes.   Gord Magill  32:15 Omar Khadr, this young kid whose dad moved to Canada, at some point Omar was born in Canada. Whatever his parents background is, is sort of irrelevant to that legal fact. September 11th comes along, Omar's father takes him to Afghanistan. He get caught up in his firefight. Whatever he is, think of the circumstances of this trial, of the incident of Omar Khadr's guilt is irrelevant to the fact that Omar Khadr spent many years in Guantanamo Bay, and the Canadian media and this is the main point I'm trying to make here. This is not about Omar Khadr, or the circumstances that led to his incarceration. The point is that the Canadian media made Omar Khadr a household name. Everybody knew about that. They blasted it full volume for years, because he was kept at Gitmo. And it was perceived by the Canadian media and the government or parts of the government and the public that he was getting unfair treatment. These four guys, the Coutts 4, denied bill twice, kept in jail for over two years. Two of them did time in solitary, having never been convicted of anything. And the media have said nothing.   Will Dove  33:46 Right.   Gord Magill  33:47 Not a goddamn thing.   Will Dove  33:49 And we've got pictures of Omar Khadr preparing pipe bombs.   Gord Magill  33:55 Sure, yeah. I mean, he was in Afghanistan. The circumstances, I had no comment. And you mentioned pipe bombs. One thing the media have done, some of them kept saying "Oh, Tony Olienick had pipe bombs", and others what they do as the media, you should know this Will, and your listeners should know this. The media do a game where they omit certain things and tell you certain things, which tells you about what the media's narrative is, right? So they said, "Tony Olienick has been accused of having pipe bombs." What they failed to tell you is that Tony Olienick runs a gravel quarry, Tony Olienick uses industrial explosives in the production of gravel and he has permits, municipal permits to go searching for gravel below grade to figure out where the correct rock deposits are today and produce more gravel, they're industrial explosives. The media have said nothing about that because, again, they want to make a bad guy to help justify what Trudeau did to the entire country, and to make these people feel better about supporting it, which is why they believe this crap, and why they haven't turned a critical eye to it. Like we were all asked to turn a critical eye to Omar Khadr. We have likewise been shut out from even asking any questions, that's what happened to the Coutts 4.   Will Dove  35:28 Right. And they're hardly the only political prisoners in Canada who have been put into solitary confinement. I interviewed Pastor Artur Pawlowski. He was kept in prison under horrendous conditions. He was kept in solitary confinement for saying things the government didn't like, and folks, you can see my interview with Artur Pawlowski on that. Now, there's been, once again, conflicting stories about publication bans. And you were able to give me the truth on this. There were two types of bans, and neither of them were what people might think they were there for. What is publication bans about?   Gord Magill  36:04 Right, so there's two publication bans relevant to the Coutts case. The first one was sought by the defense, because the media was repeating at the time, in the immediate aftermath of the men's arrest, what are called information to obtain documents, these are documents that the police used to get warrants. And there was allegations in those documents that were unfounded and had no evidence to back them up that were inflammatory. And the judge ruled that it would be impossible to get a fair jury if that stuff was public. So they imposed the publication ban on that very narrow set of information. Right, no problem. You could talk about the rest of the case, you can ask questions like why are these guys still in jail? Why are they denied the bill? What are all the other circumstances? The only part of that first publication ban was about the info in the ITO documents. That's it.   Gord Magill  37:11 The second publication ban is not specific to the Coutts case is downstream of a Supreme Court ruling that came out in October of 2023 between a newspaper in Quebec, and I don't remember all the details of that specific case. But the ruling basically said and this is the Supreme Court of Canada, that all federal cases in Canada, pre-trial hearings to federal cases, there is a blanket publication ban downstream of this ruling of something that's got nothing to do with Coutts. So, okay, fair enough. The problem is, there was a year and a half between the arrests and that second publication ban and the media, what they've done, is they've hid behind the first ones thing, "Whoa, there's a publication ban. We can't talk about it." No, you can still talk about the case, you can still ask questions, you can ask questions to the government. There's all this stuff that's already publicly available that you are free to discuss. They hid behind the first publication ban as an excuse to not talk about the case at all. And now on the other publication ban came down. There was just even more reason for them to shut up about it. Now, the free trial hearing publication ban, it's not really it's not really self-serving on anyone's part. Like I say it's downstream of this other case. I don't know how useful it is. If we want to wind the clock back, you'll remember Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka. The Leslie Mahaffy, the murder took place in St. Catharines. Ontario, roundabout '93 or '94. That's kind of where I grew up, I grew up 20 minutes from there. And in that case, some of the details were considered by the government and the Crown to salacious for people in Canada to hear what happened. Reporters of Buffalo, New York 25 minutes down the road from St. Catharines started reporting on the case instead, and it went across the border, back in the day, rabbit ears, cable TV, and the Canadian government had no way to stop it. And I've published a few articles on my substack discussing things that are technically under the publication ban because again, I'm in the United States and they can't do anything to me. And I don't believe that I've said anything that's going to throw the case either way. I'm just reporting the facts.   Will Dove  40:01 If you want to access that substack, Gord, please send me the link to it. We'll put the link beneath this interview. So we could read what you've written?   Gord Magill  40:11 Yeah, it's autonomoustruckers.substack.com. But obviously I'm biased for the men, because I think a miscarriage of justice is going on here. But I'm not giving anything away. It's just that this second publication ban, again, it came downstream of another case. And it's getting in the way of things that people need to know, in a free and democratic society.   Will Dove  40:11 Right. Let's talk about a couple of other people that had been involved here. Somebody I had been trying to interview but I've had no luck but you have, Granny Mackay. And what was her role in all of this?   Gord Magill  40:51 So Margaret Mackay, she was on the sort of side of freedom and against mandates, she's been around for a while. She heard about what was happening with the Coutts guys and just put her best foot forward and said, "Something isn't right about this case." And she began fundraising for them and doing as much publicity as she could, given that she basically only had a Facebook page, and she's just like one woman, and she became friends with members of their family, and has just done her level best, as the leftwards like to say, raise awareness. And she's just done her best to be like a sort of play sizes and journalist, and fundraiser to help these guys   Will Dove  41:46 I want you to correct me if I'm wrong here. But one of the trailers that they searched, did that trailer not belong to her?   Gord Magill  41:53 I don't believe so. No.   Will Dove  41:54 No? Well, maybe it was on her property.   Gord Magill  41:57 No, no, Margaret Mackay lives in Fort Saskatchewan up by Edmonton. She's nowhere near Coutts.   Will Dove  42:19 Okay, so obviously I got that wrong. Now, you also did an interview with Tucker Carlson and I watched the interview preparation for this one. But I will let you discuss what you talked about with Tucker. What happened as the result of that interview?   Gord Magill  42:19 So Mr. Carlson, was scheduled for two presentations in Alberta at the end of January. And his producers research about what was going on again, I mean, Tucker pays attention, everything that they wanted to know more about Alberta. And I write occasionally for Newsweek magazine in the United States. I'm like a guest, opinion editor, contributor. And I have -- prior to going on Mr. Carlson's show, I had written two articles in Newsweek, about the Coutts case, again, I sort of did this of my own volition, and pitch them to my editor, because there was very little news in the media in Canada. Those two pieces were forwarded to Mr. Carlson and his producers. They were of interest to those guys. We began communicating to discuss his appearance in Alberta. And I was relaying information to Mr. Carlson and his producers about Alberta in general and specifically the Coutts case. After that had gone on for a little while. He basically invited me on his show, he's like, "I want to hear more about this, like, just come on my show." So I drove out to one of his studios, in Maine and got to meet them. We had a nice chat. And he was very, very interested in what was going on with this case, and other issues facing Canada. And we taped that about a week before he went to Canada. And when he was on stage with Premier Smith, he brought up the Coutts 4 thing, where no media in Canada would, which means Tucker Carlson has got more backbone than the entirety of the Canadian media establishment.   Will Dove  44:13 Yes, but that interview actually raised a great deal of awareness. Not just in Canada, but in the US.   Gord Magill  44:21 Oh, sure. Yeah. You and I both operate in what they might call the sort of alternative media, citizen journalism, whatever you want to call it. And it's just basically, we're filling a void because it's become apparent over the last few years. And when I say a few years, several decades, maybe even longer, if you want to get into the nitty-gritty of the history of things, but it's gotten worse. I grew up under the shadow of 911 and first Iraq war, which I protested against, and everybody back then knew that the government and the media were mostly liars. And fast forward twenty years, and it seems like the skepticism of media and state has flipped. Twenty years ago, when I was a kid, it was "people" on the left, who are skeptical of the relationship between state and Corporation, skeptical of America and its imperial projects especially in the Middle East, skeptical of the war on terror, skeptical of state power. Again, fast forward 20 years later, and all those sane people I used to protest with, dropped the ball, allowed government working with pharmaceutical companies to take over our societies, shut things down, mandate things, closed schools, closed businesses, allow the largest transfer of wealth from the working and middle classes to the very rich in human history that we saw under COVID. And this stupid war in the Ukraine, like, the people who were supposedly critical of all this stuff, and skeptical of it 20 years ago, have now become full-throated supporters of it. And we are left with the media landscape that's got a lot to be desired.   Gord Magill  46:27 So we kind of have to do it ourselves. Like it was Marshall McLuhan that said, we have to become the media. Well, you've become the media, I've become the media. And I only really know about two things. I'm a trucker. I've been a trucker my whole life, I can speak confidently about trucking. And given my participation of the freedom convoy, my knowledge of Canadian politics, and all of the issues around that, I can speak about this. That's it. Here I am.   Will Dove  47:00 Right. And unfortunately, to give you some good news, Gord, I do a weekly news report. And just last week, I was able to report that according to a recent survey 55% of Canadians, now it's not just that they don't trust the media, believe that mainstream media is lying to them.   Gord Magill  47:19 It's only 55%, it should be higher.   Will Dove  47:21 It should be but I'm talking about the ones who actually say, "They're lying. They're outright lying." Now with the distrust is higher than that. I believe the same survey just a few months ago, it was only 50%. So it's coming up very, very fast. So you're absolutely right. It's people like you and I, the independent media, we're now bringing people the truth, and people are figuring out to never listen to mainstream media they're being lied to. So I want to thank you, once again, for giving me your time for this interview. There's one last thing I think we should cover. And this has to do with these four gentlemen, all of whom are just working class guys. I believe only one of them doesn't have children. They've been separated from their families for two years. Two of them are still in prison. There is a legal defense fund for them. Could you talk briefly about that?   Gord Magill  48:13 There is several I mean, there's a bunch of gifts and goods. I've got one go to give some goods, Trudeau's political prisoners, or you can search either of their names to give directly to the man if you like. There's ongoing legal bills, even Jerry Morin and Chris Lysak, even though they're out, they have outstanding legal bills, Chris Carbert and Tony Olienick, stalled pre-trial hearings. So you know, the fight is not over. And every dollar you could possibly contribute helps greatly.   Will Dove  48:47 Yeah, and folks, I will be providing a link to Gord's fundraiser and I'll see if I can find the others and provide links to those as well. These men need our help. It's criminal, what has been done to them.   Will Dove  49:03 Gord, once again, thank you so much for your time. I've been searching now for two years, to find someone who was willing to speak and could speak knowledgeably about what's happened to these men. So thank you so much for coming on my show and giving people the truth.   Gord Magill  49:04 It sure is.   Gord Magill  49:16 Yeah, no, my pleasure. Thank you for being interested. Thank you for caring about your country. And thank you for caring about the questions that their treatment raised. Like, if the government can just throw these heinous accusations against you, with very little in the way of evidence, throw you in jail for two years, deny you bill, and then at the end of it all just dropped the charges. What right to protest do you actually have?